European Convention on Human Rights: 75th Anniversary

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I join others in warmly commending the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this debate and for his excellent speech, which has set off a very valuable debate. The noble Lord is a true liberal, whatever his current location. It is unusual for a Member of the House of Lords to have the honour to chair the Joint Committee on Human Rights, but it is a tribute to him and an honour for this House that he does so. I should record my interest, which is in the register, as a vice-president to my friend the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, of the organisation Justice.

We have heard voices today calling for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights, or at least to seek to change it or the Human Rights Act. Do we really want our country to be bracketed with outlaws such as Russia, Belarus and Hungary in ignoring and rubbishing human rights? That would be a regressive and deplorable step.

I agree with the comment by Amnesty—and I do not always—that the conduct of the current Russian Government should be a reminder to us all of our good fortune to live in a country with respect for the rule of law and which, in the main, complies with the rulings of independent courts. The UK leaving the convention would be exactly what Putin wants.

The convention, and the court system that it is attached to, forms a core part of the framework of the long-standing international alliance of states gathered together in the Council of Europe, dedicated to the pursuit of the common goals of human rights, democracy and the rule of law. I commend noble Lords, including my noble friend Lady Brinton, who take part in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, which I have never had the honour to do.

I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Lilley—I am grateful he is still in his place, as I know he has other commitments—that Commonwealth countries are not in the ECHR system because they are not, except for Malta, Cyprus and the UK, located in Europe.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for replying to that point. The point is that they do not rely on an international agreement to provide very good human rights to their citizens. Why should we be different?

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

I think answering that might set up another mini-debate, and I am not going to be tempted to go down that road.

For a major power such as us, a founding member of this European system, to leave the convention—and thus the Council of Europe, a point made by several noble Lords—would sow division and confusion among liberal states just when we need solidarity. It would demonstrate that the protection of individual rights against the excesses of state power is an unimportant and futile endeavour.

Indeed, our membership, along with that of all the other liberal democracies in Europe, of the council and its convention is part of the system of regional security that is so vital now. It creates the preconditions for peace through the promotion of democracy, the rule of law and human rights, and helps inoculate people and Governments against the pernicious propaganda coming out of Moscow and elsewhere.

The ECHR is not some remote, foreign product to be resisted as an imposition. That point was made by one noble Lord—I apologise, but I have forgotten who. We should celebrate the fact that the UK has played a pivotal role in not only creating but shaping the ECHR. I noted that several of the lawyers involved, such as the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, seem to come from Merseyside. That must be a fertile source of human rights inspiration. Our judges continue to contribute to the future of the convention system and the wider protection of human rights. I hope that the Government will highlight the UK’s role and work to combat negative rhetoric, misrepresentation and misunderstanding.

The UK’s commitment to the ECHR, and more widely to the rule of law, boosts not only our international reputation but our attractiveness as a place to do business, by emphasising that individual and business rights are protected. Our commitment to the international rule of law underpins our global economic competitiveness and attractiveness as a destination for investment, which the Government are rightly emphasising. It is also part of the Government’s growth mission.

I was intrigued to read an article in the Times this week by the noble Lord, Lord Hague of Richmond. He is not in his place but, as this article was published, I feel able to comment on it without being discourteous. The article’s headline began, “I'm no fan but”, and such a “but” always puts one on notice. His declaration that

“Trump’s effect may be positive … prompting a startling realignment of ideas”


was a jolt, because I must confess that I can see nothing positive coming from President Trump. One of the positive nudges that the noble Lord felt was a result of President Trump was that the ECHR should be rewritten. He did not say how. If he meant that it would be rewritten only in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, referred to, that might be sensible. We are all open to any useful reforms.

The noble Lord, Lord Hague, then confused me by stressing that these actions of Trump are

“a reminder that an effective democratic state is part of a moral order in which its policies should be anchored; that its reach and respect in the world rely on being able to distinguish right from wrong; that the abuse of great power brings resistance and rejection”.

I thoroughly agree with the noble Lord in those remarks. My contention would be that, far from rewriting the ECHR as a reaction to President Trump, we should treasure it all the more as guarding against the kind of developments that, sadly, we are seeing in the United States.

The Human Rights Act brought rights home, as has been said. It was one of the products of the talks on political and constitutional reform 30 years ago between Labour and the Liberal Democrats, known as the Cook-Maclennan talks—after Robin Cook and Robert Maclennan. I am very proud of that and other products. I was delighted to hear the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, stress the value of the Human Rights Act.

We have heard that applications to Strasbourg have been on a general downward trend over the last 10 years. The Human Rights Act has contributed to that, as a lot of those cases have not gone to Strasbourg but have been settled domestically. In 2024, there were only three cases against the UK heard by the court, and only one found a violation. The victor was the Daily Mail, in a freedom of expression case. There were no interim measures or injunctions issued against the UK last year. This is a testament to the strength of our national system of human rights protections. One of the reasons for this harmonious state of affairs is that a productive dialogue has taken place between the Strasbourg and UK courts to deal with any tensions or disagreements. This was confirmed in the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale.

For some people, no bill of rights, whether the European Convention or any other, will be acceptable in the UK system of a political constitution and parliamentary sovereignty. These arguments are always presented as concerns about democracy and democratic accountability. However, they almost always end in arguments for centralising power in the Executive. A lot of human rights challenges are to call the Executive to account. References to the court going too far as a reason to leave the convention system more generally are almost always based in choosing to emphasise the occasional controversial case where the speaker disagrees of the outcome.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, I emphasise that any upset to our relationship with the ECHR would affect the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, which is a crucial instrument. Under that agreement, the UK Government committed to the incorporation of the convention into Northern Irish law. Proposals to legislate for the continued application of the convention into Northern Irish law while withdrawing the UK as a whole from the convention are fundamentally flawed, and there is no practical way of legislating for partial implementation.

In addition, the UK is obliged under the Windsor Framework, following our withdrawal from the EU, to observe a non-diminution of rights as set out in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. There are also, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, commitments in the trade and co-operation agreement to our continued adhesion to the ECHR. Any damage to our human rights observance could imperil the renewal of our data adequacy agreement, crucial to both business and law enforcement co-operation with the EU. For all these reasons, we should not imperil our positive engagement with the European convention and court but instead celebrate our great achievement and good fortune in creating it and sustaining it for 75 years.

Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, for his question. I do not know precisely why the nominations for this delegation have not yet been resolved. I believe that we on this side have resolved the issues; I do not know whether the noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite can shed some light. I understand that a change of Government, new roles and a change of leader will inevitably cause some delay, but I hope we can get this resolved very soon.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, could the Minister help us any more with any speculation as to what she thinks might be causing the delay? It is really not a good look that we have not yet got our act together to nominate the Westminster side of the parliamentary assembly with the European Parliament. It has been quite a few months since the general election. Some of us are very hopeful about the reset, and I am sure the Prime Minister does not want to keep meeting his EU counterparts with them saying, “Where are your Westminster people?”

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The delay, I believe, is not something that is within my control, if I can put it that way. We are keen to get this moving. As soon as we receive the names from the Opposition in the other place then we will be in a position to move this forward. We want to engage with this on a cross-party basis, so being sympathetic and patient is the right approach. However, I am sure that noble Lords on both sides will have noted the eagerness to make progress from the noble Baroness and will take that into account.

Israel-Gaza Conflict: Arrest Warrants

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The helpfulness or otherwise is not really at question. The ICC is independent of the United Kingdom Government, and rightly so. We will comply with our obligations as a member of the ICC.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I think the House deserves an answer from the Government to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, particularly as we have a debate later on the rule of law. So how do the Government interpret Section 23 of the International Criminal Court Act 2001, which is domestic law? The ICC and the Rome statute is one issue, but the other issue is domestic law, which seems pretty clear. The Minister batted it to the courts. I think it is important to know the Government’s legal interpretation of Section 23.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I do not think I batted it away. I gave an accurate description of the Government’s position. It is not unprecedented for two pieces of law to cut across each other. The right way to resolve this is through the courts. Unlike some Members opposite, although happily by no means all, we accept our obligations under international law.

The Ukraine Effect (European Affairs Committee Report)

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary said in his recent Statement on Ukraine marking 1,000 days since Russia invaded:

“Ukraine’s cause is a just one. … We need Ukraine to stay strong, and … they need us to stay strong by their side”.


In that respect, I salute the yellow and blue outfit of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, which sends that very signal—she is always a sharp dresser, but particularly today—and I also welcome her excellent speech.

David Lammy also said in his Statement this week, quite rightly:

“This war matters greatly for Britain and the global order … When we support Ukraine, we are not just aiding its fight for freedom; we are also contributing to our fight for our freedom”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/11/24; cols. 162-63.]


Arguably, it is even more than that. While it is a welcome decision by President Biden, followed by Britain and France, to grant the Ukrainians the discretion that they have long pleaded for to use the long-range weapons supplied by allies to strike targets inside Russia, let us not underestimate the peril which not just Ukraine but we in the West are in.

I am delighted that this debate has benefited from the valedictory speech from the noble Lord, Lord Levene. I was never in the Ministry of Defence, but I was an EU adviser to Lloyd’s of London, albeit a long time before his chairmanship.

Edward Luce, the Financial Times’ chief US commentator, has written in the FT this week regarding President-elect Trump’s nomination of Tulsi Gabbard as Director of National Intelligence to oversee the 18 US intelligence agencies that:

“Given Gabbard’s close affinity to Vladimir Putin’s Russia, she would be unlikely to get a low-level security clearance in normal times. Now she will be custodian to America’s most classified secrets. Should Gabbard be confirmed as director of national intelligence, America’s allies will surely re-evaluate the wisdom of sharing secrets”.


That was pretty up front as a statement, but it shows how the debate we are having today about the report from our European Affairs Committee, so ably led by the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, is even more pertinent and urgent that when the report was published 10 months ago.

With uncertainty and trepidation hanging over our expectations from Washington, it is even more important that the European end of the transatlantic partnership gets its act together on both security and defence, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said. My noble friend Lord Teverson spoke of how much EU-NATO complementarity has progressed, although deeper co-operative structures are needed, and that is what I mainly want to speak about.

I believe that neither the UK nor the EU can afford to be too precious in the search for the ties that bind when it comes to political, diplomatic, security and defence co-operation. I am not being so unrealistic as to ignore Brexit—if only I could—but we need to push for solutions which, while respecting some rules and limits, are hard-headed in keeping in view the tough reality of what challenges we jointly face and the substance of the goal we must reach.

We have reason to feel encouraged, because in its recent general election manifesto the Labour Party pledged to seek

“an improved and ambitious relationship with our European partners”,

and that, as part of that, a Labour Government would seek

“a new security agreement with the EU”.

We already have the promise of regular EU-UK summits, and the Foreign Secretary has participated in the Foreign Affairs Council. He has argued that:

“UK security is indivisible from European Security”,


and he has agreed with the EU high representative to establish a six-monthly strategic dialogue, with the first meeting early next year.

Let us not forget that Norway is ahead of us, having signed a security and defence partnership with the EU in May of this year. According to the EU press release,

“It covers existing areas of cooperation such as our common continued support to Ukraine, Norway’s participation in EU CSDP missions and operations, and its involvement in EU defence initiatives”.


Can the Minister confirm whether the UK Government are looking closely at this model? Of course, the difference is that Norway is an EEA, and therefore single market, member—that is perhaps a hint of what advantages such membership carries.

As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, said, ideas for European defence co-operation are nothing new. Efforts to put some kind of order into the NATO-EU overlap and to fortify the European pillar have been going on for decades. In the 1950s, there was an attempt to set up a European defence community, but it was killed off by a vote in the French Assemblée Nationale just over 70 years ago, such that Europe then left security to NATO while it focused on economics. That knowledgeable and astute commentator Timothy Garton Ash recalled in an article earlier this year, just after our report was published, that the then French Prime Minister, Pierre Mendès France, explained the reasons his Parliament rejected the European defence community as

“too much integration and too little England”.

Mr Garton Ash mused:

“Might there also be a lesson there?”


He pointed out:

“Today, a European defence project would not be a single, clear, unified institution of the EU. That was the road not taken 70 years ago. Rather, it would be a European defence community with a lowercase d and c, connecting European, bilateral and national capabilities to the existing military operational core in Nato”.


So, the good news is that there is no longer any need to have these theological arguments.

During the NATO summit in Washington in July, our new Defence Secretary suggested that the UK could join EU defence initiatives even before a more formal pact is agreed. Can the Minister decipher this for us? Has the EU indicated any flexibility on this score?

Other speakers have covered the issue of sanctions, and I do not have the time to do that. They pointed out that the major challenge seems to be one of enforcement. There is a worrying story today about how some parts produced in the UK have somehow ended up in Russian drones. Both the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, and my noble friend Lady Suttie also spoke about the involvement of companies in British Overseas Territories in sanctions busting. This is a matter my noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed has been taking up. So, obviously, we need to know a bit more about what is being done on that.

The Labour manifesto in July committed to working with allies to enable the

“seizure and repurposing of frozen Russian state assets to support Ukraine”.

That meant seizing the principal—the $300 billion—not just using the interest under the G7 initiative. Our report noted that the last Foreign Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, had suggested to us that there is a legal route to achieve that. Can the Minister tell us what this Labour Government are doing to implement their manifesto pledge to overcome the claimed legal obstacle, including any discussions they have had with the EU and other partners?

I am grateful to the wife of the noble Lord, Lord Banner, for the article, which I will read when I have tracked it down. There are suspicions that these frozen assets are being stored up to use as a bargaining chip in negotiations. I was not sure whether this is what the former Estonian Prime Minister and future EU High Representative Kaja Kallas meant when she told the Financial Times in February that:

“This is economic pressure we can place on the Russian economy to hasten the breaking point of this war”.


That was slightly ambivalent language; I hope I do not cause offence when I say that, but I was not clear. Finally, do the Government agree that the best idea is to let Ukraine use those assets now? Can they perhaps pitch to President-elect Trump that Ukraine would likely use perhaps half of the $300 billion to buy arms from US defence manufacturers, which is perhaps a temptation?

British Indian Ocean Territory: Negotiations

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

We will hear from the Lib Dem Benches now.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I join others in the congratulations on the partial addressing of this gross humanitarian injustice. I congratulate the previous Government for initiating and the present Government for concluding the treaty. Has the Minister had to deal with completely unnecessary alarm, created in Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands, by the hypocritical noises that have come out of the Opposition Benches? Have the Government been able to completely address those unnecessary concerns?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have been disappointed, as I said in my earlier remarks. We would not have played political games with the sovereignty of our overseas territories, but we have been able to offer the reassurances that were needed. We have been in close contact with the Governments in both Gibraltar and the Falklands, and I think they understand what is really going on here. I hope we have been able to offer the assurances that the noble Baroness refers to.

Abraham Accords

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Thursday 14th September 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I am so shocked—I am recalling life in the European Parliament, where we were lucky if we got two minutes.

I am pleased that we are having this debate and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Polak, on securing it, almost on the third anniversary of the signature of the original accords. In fact, the anniversary is tomorrow, which is also the festival of Rosh Hashanah, so I wish Jewish colleagues and the community in general a happy new year and shanah tovah.

I strongly welcome the Abraham accords as a factor of peace and development in the Middle East region. In the 1970s, I visited Israel on a scholarship from the Anglo-Israel Association. This led me on a journey to being today a vice-president of the Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, so I am deeply committed to the security and flourishing of Israel at peace in its region.

I wrote a pamphlet as a result of that trip which urged regional economic integration. Yes, I was inspired by the then EEC and I was thinking of Israel’s neighbours, not Gulf or North African countries beyond Egypt, but the destination is more important than the route. People-to-people contacts as much as official ones will help to normalise relations. Beside trade and tourism, support in bad times can help. We are, of course, particularly thinking, as the noble Lord pointed out, of Moroccan, Libyan and, previously, Turkish victims of terrible disasters. I understand that several Israeli teams are assisting with the rescue effort on the ground in Morocco.

The largely positive picture from the Abraham accords is marred by a deplorable rise in extremism in some quarters. This includes the absolutely shocking recent remarks by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that Hitler murdered European Jews in the Holocaust not because of anti-Semitism but because of Jews’ “social role” in society. Those remarks have been greeted with widespread horror, including by leading Palestinian public figures in an open letter in which they

‘unequivocally condemn the morally and politically reprehensible comments’.

Sadly, we also have shocking extremists sharing in government on the Israeli side. While I will always be a friend of Israel, this has not made me a friend of all Israeli Governments, but the current Government are the worst I have ever witnessed. The make-up and domestic policies of this Netanyahu Government in encouraging illegal settlements and failing to stop settler violence against Palestinians are surely deterrents to reinforcing the Abraham accords—although they in any case bring their own headaches, such as how to treat Saudi Arabia’s leader Mohammed Bin Salman—and to any peace with Palestinians. Of course terrorist attacks by Palestinians on Israeli civilians as much as Israeli settler violence are deplorable, and I condemn both. The prospects for peace and a two-state solution with the Palestinians have rarely looked worse, and the Abraham accords are not an alternative to that.

On a trip last November with Caabu, I found it sobering to hear the alienation of young Palestinians from not only Israel but their own Palestinian Authority, which was last elected 15 years ago. It is interesting and possibly hopeful that a recent poll found that while only just over one-quarter of Palestinians in the West Bank had a positive view of the regional impact of the Abraham accords, this rose to almost half in Gaza and nearly two-thirds in east Jerusalem, and a majority of the respondents in all three places agreed with the statement

“Arab governments are neglecting the Palestinians and starting to make friends with Israel, because they think the Palestinians should be more willing to compromise”.


That is food for thought.

I conclude with the obvious questions for the Minister, who can perhaps report on the Foreign Secretary’s recent visit to Israel. They are: where do the Government think the Abraham accords are going? What is the UK Government’s role in them, as the noble Lord, Lord Polak, asked? Do they offer any hope for Israeli-Palestinian peace? What shoots of peace can he discern for us to deliver a happy new year?

Israel and Palestine

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for this timely debate. For 45 years I have been a friend of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people—an expression I much prefer to “Jewish state”. It is a long story as to why I first connected with the country. Suffice it to say that it started by chance, as I am not Jewish and have no family connection to Israel. I found myself celebrating Purim in a kibbutz in March 1978. I have just looked it up on Wikipedia; it was 22 and 23 March 1978.

What attracted me and kept me engaged were the values of the State of Israel and its right, which I very strongly support, not only to exist but to exist in security, without its neighbours and others wishing and trying to wipe it off the map—so I have ended up as a vice-president of Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel. There is certainly inequality and discrimination within Israel against the Arab minority, but it is emphatically not an apartheid state. Israel is entitled to take military action by the IDF to defend itself and its citizens from attack and, although there have been excesses and wrongdoing by the IDF, the motivation for its action is qualitatively different from the terrorist attacks on civilians by Palestinian militants and the glorification of terror, including by the Palestinian Authority.

I am a friend of Israel but I am no friend of the present Prime Minister, Mr Netanyahu. I never have been, because I am a liberal and he is increasingly like Trump, as shown by the attempts to ram through highly controversial and self-serving changes to the courts. With an undemocratic and corrupt Palestinian Authority, both Israelis and Palestinians are very badly served at present. The present coalition Government Mr Netanyahu leads go way beyond even the tolerable, containing far-right extremists and racists, and they are perpetrating or being apologists for some utterly disgraceful actions and rhetoric about Palestinians and Arab Israelis. The Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel are appalled at the violent attacks by settlers on Palestinians in Hawara, and indeed any settler violence.

Israelis opposed to this far-right Government give me hope about rescuing the soul of their country, with thousands of protesters on the street every week. Prominent among them are members of the Liberal Democrats’ sister party, Yesh Atid, but people from all sections of Israeli society are taking part.

I first said almost 20 years ago that I believed that illegal settlements and being an occupying power were poisoning and politically corrupting Israel, as well as oppressing Palestinians. My visits to Israel and the West Bank last autumn confirmed my view, but even recognition of a Palestinian state does not obviate the need for negotiations. The route to peace and any hope of two states has to lie partly through economic and cultural co-operation and engagement, which is why I fervently oppose any boycott of Israel.

I support the Abraham Accords and was glad to join the call, which others have mentioned this evening, for the UK Government to work with partners to create an international fund for peace for Israelis and Palestinians. The national question between Jews and Palestinians is still just about solvable. I hope the Minister can give us hope of a solution.

Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol: Scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals (European Affairs Committee Sub-Committee Report)

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Friday 20th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, came through that terrifying experience to share his wisdom with us today, not least as the former president of the CBI. I absolutely endorse the tributes paid to the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, for his chairmanship and stewardship as a sort of welfare counsellor to the sub-committee: he is not a former top diplomat for nothing.

This report is not about the protocol itself, but about the process of scrutiny. The noble Lord, Lord Jay, kept to the confines of his report in his initial presentation. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, said, it contains a plethora of constructive and practical suggestions, and these were referred to and, indeed, added to during the debate. While the noble Lord, Lord Jay, kept to the confines of the report and its subject, other speakers did not, beginning with the noble Lords, Lord Lamont, Lord Dodds and Lord Weir. They ranged a bit more widely, so I will give myself permission to do so just a little.

I went back to read the introductory report of the sub-committee from July 2021. Everything in that report is still entirely valid, including that the protocol was not created in a vacuum but as a consequence of Brexit. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, pointed out, this was a UK Government choice. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, referred to paragraph 30 of the Government’s response to the report, which says:

“The imposition of EU law was a consequence of the EU’s unwillingness to accept other solutions.”


Well, as has been remarked on during the debate, the Government negotiated, signed and ratified. They insisted on ratification of the protocol, so this idea that “It’s nothing to do with us, guv”—particularly the “guv”—is, I think, pertinent in this context. Indeed, the introductory report from the sub-committee I just referred to, from two and a half years ago, said:

“Just as unionists and loyalists object to the Protocol being imposed without their consent, so nationalists and republicans point out that Brexit was imposed on Northern Ireland even though the majority of votes there were to remain in the EU.”


As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, pointed out, there was no democratic deficit before Brexit. I really do not want to go on too much about this, but I am responding to remarks made as if this came from outer space. For those of us who have some experience of the EU’s democratic processes, one of our main objections to Brexit was that we would become a rule-taker, not a rule-maker. The sub-committee’s report of July 2021 said:

“While there are mitigating steps that can be taken … there is no apparent way to eliminate the democratic deficit.”


That is absolutely true. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, was one of those who repeated the point that it was obvious what the problem was going to be. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bew, that it is not a new acknowledgement, or some sort of new revelation, that there is a democratic deficit.

As this report concentrates on, the important thing is how we can mitigate and improve the management of the situation. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, added to the suggestions in the report that the UK should stop blocking an EU office in Belfast—which obviously seems sensible—and the idea of having a Northern Ireland Executive office in Brussels. Scotland and London, among others—forgive my ignorance; Wales probably did as well—had their own offices in Brussels back in the day. It could be not just a section of the UK mission but an office in its own right, as the Scotland and London offices were.

My noble friend Lady Suttie referred to the Commission non-paper of October 2021, which had lots of sensible suggestions on how to improve the practical situation. That is what we need to concentrate on; how will it be taken forward? It is not helpful that we have had to labour for the last few years, as the sub-committee noted in its invaluable introductory report of two and a half years ago, against the Government’s apparent reluctance to accept their obligations under the protocol and the consequences of their policy choices, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and others.

I completely understand the dilemma of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, over language when thinking about the former Prime Minister. I am afraid that there was dishonesty—“lying” may be unparliamentary, so let us stick to that term—about what paperwork and checks would be necessary. There was no clarity about what practical obligations would be imposed on stakeholders in Northern Ireland, so it has been a shock to business and others. By the way, I do not think the statistics bear out that the protocol has had a poor impact on the economic situation in Northern Ireland; the situation is rather to the contrary.

As the sub-committee has been pointing out for its entire existence, there was a paramount need for the British Government to be trustworthy, rigorous and honest and show good faith and good will in acknowledging what they signed up to and its implications, and then carry through the good governance machinery necessary to make it all work. Unfortunately, that did not happen. We had the internal market Bill and now we have the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, which is parked—thank goodness—and will hopefully go up in a puff of smoke. Both of them have been detrimental, to put it mildly, to any chance of demonstrating trust and getting on with the necessity of implementing the protocol.

To quote the report we are discussing, this is not helped by the fact that

“the Government’s stated intention in pursuing the particular form of Brexit it has chosen is to give the opportunity for the UK (in respect of Great Britain) to diverge from EU Single Market rules.”

That complicates the situation because, if you have the moving target of regulatory divergence all the time, there will be no stability in the situation for Northern Ireland, which is effectively under single market rules.

Today we are trying to discuss day-to-day process rather than policy. One element that we can demonstrably very much rely on is the assiduous, diligent and thorough exercise of the scrutiny duties of our protocol sub-committee under the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme. As the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said, no other body is doing this. The sub-committee on the protocol is filling a gap where the Government should be leading the way. I enjoyed some of the acerbic comments in the report on the Government’s failure to fulfil their duties in a prompt and efficient way. I thought some of the language reflected the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Jay, in his long career in Whitehall. It is not good enough to have sloppy Explanatory Memoranda —“unacceptably poor” is the phrase used.

I am running out of time. What occurred to me in reading the report was the need for trust, honesty, rigour, respect, fairness, engagement, fulfilment of obligations, provision of information, good will and good faith. That is all that is being asked for—I see the Minister grimacing; it is a lot—and it is not too much to ask from a Government who want to implement the obligations that they signed up to.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Godson, referred to the Irish Government. It is worth recalling that the sub-committee referred in its introductory report to the Irish Government’s important role in facilitating dialogue between the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive on the one hand and the EU on the other. We cannot expect them to take on too much, but we owe it to them to recognise the role they have played in the last few years.

European Political Community

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

I thank the noble Earl for the second half of his question, which I will convey to the Government; it is not a commitment that I can make but I imagine that it is something that the Government will want to do. The UK has been clear from the start about the importance of any new European political gathering not duplicating the established work of, for example, NATO, the Council of Europe, the OSCE or the UN. However, the summit was an opportunity for the UK to lead that European debate and deliver on issues that matter for the UK. It is worth pointing out that around a third of the participants at the summit are not members of the European Union. No new structures, institutions or anything of the sort were created; this is a forum for addressing pan-European issues of common interest.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

The attendance of the former Prime Minister at the EPC meeting was a welcome surprise. Given that one of the themes was security, as cited by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, can the Minister tell us what plans the Government have to advance co-operation in the foreign and security sphere; for instance, by providing support to EU civil and military missions under the EU’s common security and defence policy?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, there were no formal conclusions from the summit itself but progress was undoubtedly made in a bunch of areas and key priorities for the UK. For example, the former Prime Minister and President Macron issued a joint statement confirming plans to finalise arrangements to proceed with the Sizewell C nuclear power station by the end of the month—to be built, as noble Lords will know, by EDF. There was also agreement to enhance broader civil nuclear co-operation, to conclude a bilateral agreement on illegal migration, and to hold the first bilateral summit since 2018 in France next year.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Baroness Ludford Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

But if the consequence of doing so is to embrace a Bill which drives a horse and cart through the procedures and principles by which this Parliament operates, surely that is an inhibition and we should avoid it at all costs.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

To prevent the noble Lord, Lord Bew, having to get up and sit down again, I ask him again to appreciate and acknowledge that, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, nobody in the debates we have had, whether at Second Reading, on the first day in Committee or today, is arguing to invoke Article 16. No one is advocating its use, let alone now. All that is being said is that the legal argument of necessity invoked by the Government is undermined by the fact that they have never resorted to the use of Article 16; hence necessity is on very shallow foundations.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, is there not a very short answer to all of this: not to proceed with the Bill?