Exchange of Naval Nuclear Propulsion Information Agreement

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Monday 17th January 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems a bit strange that we all recognise how important this agreement is—it is extremely important—but that this is the only opportunity, in this room today, to scrutinise it in detail. I support it, as indeed do all noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon, but there are parts of it that we really need to dig a little deeper into. I have some questions. I know the Minister is very helpful, but some of the issues raised by the International Agreements Committee are about the explanatory memoranda produced with these treaties, and we need to know the detail. We cannot have just a broad sweep, which is what has been happening. Some of the questions that I wish to ask look at the detail of the agreement.

I accept that we are all new to this process of examining trade deals but, if we look at the joint standing committee on trade in the Australian Parliament, there is a process that allows parliamentarians access to much greater detail than we have had—not just on this deal but on other deals. I would recommend to the Government that we work hard at this to get it right. We now have a process of 18 months as part of this agreement, and it is very important that we have a hard-headed look at some of the aspects in it.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, spoke in some detail about the Five Eyes agreement. Were the Five Eyes nations informed in advance that this was going to happen? One reason why I ask that is the point that has already been made: that New Zealand has already stated that it will not allow nuclear-propelled vessels into its waters. If that has not been referred to them in advance, we have put them at a disadvantage, as we have Canada. Does this weaken the Five Eyes agreement? I hope that it does not because it is a very important agreement for our security.

One other area where I have not found any advice or information is about the South Pacific Nuclear Free Zone Treaty. Where does that kick in? What about the whole area of making sure that we work with our allies across the board? Could we be enlightened on the wider context of policy—this has been said by others—towards the Indo-Pacific region and China? That is very much on our minds, given the advice that we were offered last week about the interest that China is taking in this Parliament.

I am sorry to pose such a long list of questions, but part of that is because of the paucity of advice in the Explanatory Memorandum. This is a large-scale defence deal put together in great secrecy and handled in a rather ham-fisted way—the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, being a much more distinguished diplomat than me, calls it a travesty of diplomacy. The way in which it has been handled with France has been awful; France has been done out of a $90 billion contract for conventional submarines. No one seems to have taken into account that France has a considerable interest in the Pacific region. There are about 1.6 million French citizens in, for example, New Caledonia and French Polynesia, and the French already have a defence strategy based on the region. It seems bizarre not to have taken them into account in the run-up to the treaty. The Times very funnily pointed out that the way in which the treaty had been handled was like something out of a John Le Carré novel, which is a bit unfortunate if we are trying to position ourselves as being ready for the kind of complex agreements that we are talking about.

Australia has its own shipbuilding industry with strong links with the UK. Given the lack of information on how disagreements will be handled, as my noble friend Lady Hayter pointed out, can we assume that intellectual property is part of the deal? Where are the constraints on intellectual property? That will become quite important. As I said in the debate last week, I live close to some of the big shipyards that are involved in defence. If we look in detail at this agreement, it could mean that a lot of the shipbuilding that we do in the United Kingdom goes elsewhere. If it helps security, fair enough, but there are still big questions that need to be answered, and the answers are not in either the agreement or the memorandum.

Can any one of the partners walk away? It would be very helpful if the Minister could enlighten us about how any disagreements can be settled because there does not seem to be any dispute settlement mechanism, as stated in Article X. Similarly, there seems to be no mechanism for amendments to the treaty. Of great significance to this House, I would like to know the arrangements for continuing parliamentary scrutiny of this treaty and other treaties associated with it because we are talking about a mechanism that facilitates any further transfer of information and expertise.

Moving to a nuclear-powered fleet, rather than a diesel-powered one, in Australia cannot be put down to a desire to reduce carbon emissions. As we saw at COP 26, the present Government of Australia is pretty much in the hands of climate sceptics, so we cannot use that kind of argument.

The noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Bilimoria, referred to the Quad and the role that India plays in it. Has it been informed of the thinking behind this treaty? Was it informed before the treaty was announced or is it trying to catch up, just like everybody else?

Some of these questions could have been answered in the Explanatory Memorandum but they are not. It is worrying that this debate is the only opportunity for scrutiny of the treaty. I encourage the Government to think again about how they handle it, look at the Australian example of the Joint Statutory Committee and see whether we can come to an arrangement that keeps us all on the one side when important treaties, such as this one, are going through.

Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is indeed unfortunate that the Government did not reach across this House in constructing this piece of legislation, as my noble friend Lord Touhig said. It has been clear this afternoon that there is a range of respect for, and also knowledge of, our armed services that should have been in the mix as this Bill was put together. I was pretty shocked when I read the remarks of the Advocate-General, the most senior judge in the armed services, that the Bill is “ill-conceived” and

“brings the UK armed forces into disrepute.”

I am not a lawyer and I had intended to concentrate my remarks on Clause 2 of the Bill. Before I do that, I have to say I have a particular concern that the Bill does not take into account the repeated reinvestigation of cases. That must have a much greater impact on the mental health of those who are the subject of accusations, as the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, pointed out, than the timescale for complaints. The MoD investigation effort is underresourced, insufficiently independent and not timely. This point was made with some force by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has now said that there will be an ongoing opportunity to investigate that, but it should have been done before the Bill was put together and it should have been acknowledged in the Commons.

I move now to Clause 2. This is a clear area where Armed Forces personnel and their families are very much at a disadvantage compared with civilians who have similar complaints against other employers. As outlined by others, there is a complete cliff-edge at six years that the MoD has set. According to the MoD it promotes “greater protection”, but in reality it means less protection for the armed service personnel and more protection for the Ministry of Defence. In some cases, health conditions show up only at death. Asbestosis is one such case and there are other conditions, such as PTSD and deafness, that can take many years to show up. Why should the MoD as an employer get off scot free from claims that do not show up to a timetable? We all have a duty of care to our service men and women, and I am surprised that this was not amended when it was exposed in the House of Commons. Indeed, no amendments were passed in the House of Commons, and that is why I feel very concerned about the ability of this House to bring about amendments.

Like many others, I received a very helpful briefing from the Royal British Legion which shows that 500 claims have been made since the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, some of them by bereaved families. It makes the very specific point that safeguards already exist to ensure that claims brought forward are judged appropriate.

Others have referred to the Armed Forces covenant. There is a specific clause in it that says members of the Armed Forces

“should face no disadvantage compared to other citizens.”

During the passage of this Bill in the Commons, it was suggested that the principle of no disadvantage in the covenant could not apply when comparing those injured or bereaved as a result of overseas operations with the general civilian population. But no caveat such as that exists, and nor should it exist—and it certainly was not in the Armed Forces Act 2011 that brought the Armed Forces covenant together. The covenant explicitly states that those who are injured or bereaved are additionally eligible for special recognition as they have given most in service and should be given greater, rather than lesser, protection.

In the passage of this Bill in this House, we have the opportunity to amend it and make it a better Bill. I would like to see us do that, but we need the humanity that should exist in the House of Commons to make sure that it is passed again. It is very unfair to our armed services, and God forbid that any one of us should suffer some of the disadvantage we see outlined in the background to the Bill.

Brexit: Financial Services Sector

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Baroness seems to imply that the Government are operating in some kind of vacuum. They are not for two reasons, as was made very clear in December when we moved on to phase 2, the critical component of the negotiations when the very issues that so concern the noble Baroness will be the subject of discussion. It is not as though there is no engagement with the financial services industry; there is very close engagement. As my noble friend Lord Lamont made clear, this is a sensitive time in the discussions. It would be completely inappropriate to show hands and declare positions. The financial services industry is aware of what the Government seek in terms of their objectives. We take comfort from the position of London in the global financial world. The Z/Yen consultancy declared in September that London is the leading financial centre, ahead of New York which is second, Hong Kong, third and Singapore, fourth. Yes, we know what people in the financial services industry feel. Yes, we are cognisant of that and, yes, we are doing everything we can to robustly represent the best interests of the financial services industry.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I should not need to remind the noble Baroness that financial services in this country go further than the City of—

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

Yes. I thank my noble friend for that intervention. As I have already said, this will involve detailed technical talks—there is nothing straightforward or simple about this. I entirely agree with him that that it would be exceedingly dangerous to yield to the temptation, to which some seem to be in danger of yielding, that we can reduce this to simplistic terms. These are challenging and complex issues and they should be addressed appropriately.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, is it not interesting that we have heard three Conservative speakers, including the noble Baroness from the Dispatch Box, obviously thinking that our negotiators are amateurs and that they cannot conduct a negotiation when the broad outlines are set out before them? I served under the chairmanship of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, on the Select Committee, where it was made plain to us by 40 witnesses, time and again, that they need certainty. Ideally they wanted certainty by the end of 2017; they are now begging for it before the end of the first quarter in March. I should not need to remind the Minister that the City of London is only a small part of the United Kingdom’s financial services industry. A very large part of it is in Scotland, Bristol and Leeds. These jobs are at risk, and this is not the time to play games.

[Baroness Goldie]

I respect the noble Baroness and understand that she is a significant contributor to the proceedings of this House, but she is a little harsh in her terminology. There is no question of the Government playing games, and that is recognised in Brussels and by the EU. It is recognised that these are complex, challenging negotiations and that by their very nature a degree of sensitivity surrounds them, and that involves also the need to observe a degree of confidentiality. The financial services industry is aware of the Government’s broad objectives in these negotiations; as I said last week, senior representatives of the industry met with the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and my honourable friend Robin Walker. So there is clarity on the part of the industry as to what the Government wish to try to achieve. When the Government think it appropriate, as my honourable friend Robin Walker said in the other place, we can consider how to set out our position.

Defence Budget

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

Order. I am sorry to have to get to my feet, but if we are taking it in turns, it is the turn of the Labour Benches.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

Will the Minister say what assessment has been made in the Ministry of Defence of the costs of the total realignment of our defence capability should we lose the collective security of NATO as a consequence of losing our Trident nuclear deterrent?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I assume that someone is working on those figures. The Government do not gamble with Britain’s national security. The primary responsibility of Government is the defence of the UK and its citizens. We cannot rule out a future nuclear threat to the UK, and therefore need a credible nuclear capability. Maintaining continuous at-sea deterrence is the best way to deter the most extreme threat to the UK. To clarify my answer to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, the 1% is not on the defence budget—it is on the equipment spend within the defence budget.

Defence: Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point; the increase in numbers goes right the way across the Royal Navy—submarines, aircraft carriers and all the other ships—but we will not reduce the size of the Army just to provide extra personnel for the Royal Navy.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, political point-scoring is, I suppose, inevitable in a forum like this, but it is unedifying when hundreds of people are losing their jobs and there are families who will be in real distress this evening. Will the Minister tell us what discussions there have been with the Scottish Government about what assistance will be given to the workforce on the Clyde who will lose jobs despite the new vessels? I welcome the decision to subscribe to these new vessels on the Clyde, but the Minister should take it into account that all of us in Scotland are also heartbroken about the decision to end shipbuilding in Portsmouth. It is a historic dockyard and it is tragic that we are coming to this decision to end shipbuilding there. Does the Minister agree with me that it is absurd that this debate should be taking place at a time when we have the diversion of separating Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom, which will finish shipbuilding on the Clyde?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, personally, I hope that that will not happen. On the noble Baroness’s point about it being very political, I obviously deplore that, but it is inevitable. As far as redundancies are concerned, the Government, BAE Systems, and the trade unions are all, as I said, working as hard as they can to find new jobs for those personnel.

Mull of Kintyre Review

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his repetition of the Statement from the other place, and also thank the Secretary of State for the willingness with which he has acknowledged the conclusions of Lord Philip’s review. Will the Minister reiterate his thanks to Lord Philip for his tenacity and his wisdom in dealing with this matter, and also to my noble friend Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan? He has worked closely with the families, as recently as today, to ensure that they are kept up to speed with what is happening in your Lordships’ House and in the other place.

All of this sorry saga hinges on a piece of legal advice that was wrong. It is unfortunate that that happened. There are family members of both Flight Lieutenant Tapper and Flight Lieutenant Cook who did not live to see this day. Our sympathy goes to them as well. Will the Minister acknowledge that many lessons had been learnt before now in matters of how deceased air crew are represented before a board of inquiry? It is not before time that we now have a system that ensures that this miscarriage of justice cannot ever again be repeated.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I thank the noble Baroness for what she said, and I certainly echo her thanks to Lord Philip. I also thank the noble Baroness herself and my noble friend for all the very hard work that they put into this excellent report. I also assure the noble Baroness that many lessons have been learnt from this whole process, and hopefully we have a template to make things very much better in the future.