Scotland: Devolution

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, more than 2 million people in Scotland voted no; almost two to one. That is where the mandate lies. The people of Scotland wish the United Kingdom to remain united. We must be very cautious in our deliberations that we do not jeopardise that. Some of the issues raised since the devolution referendum put that in peril.

Let us start with English votes for English laws, following what the noble Lord, Lord Lang, said. It is very difficult to have English votes for English laws because of something called the Barnett consequentials. I will not go into the detail of the Barnett formula—I have only six minutes and it has taken me about six years to understand it—but the key issue is that we must not have two levels of Members of Parliament. That is absolutely essential. We begin to destroy the United Kingdom if we go down that route.

The other issue, again taking up a point from the noble Lord, Lord Lang, is about proposals for the devolution of taxation. One of the key issues in the referendum was the pound; it was central to the campaign. I should be very grateful if the noble and learned Lord, when he is summing up, could explain to me how a currency union, which is what sterling is, can operate without a fiscal union as well, leading to proper monetary union. We must be very careful that we do not scupper that.

If you read the Scottish press and look at the atmosphere in Scotland, you would think that no had lost. We have a responsibility to every one of those 2 million to recognise the mandate that they have given us. They were the silent majority. The noble Baroness the Leader of the House referred to how wonderful the devolution referendum had been with the high turnout. Frankly, it was the worst election I have ever seen. It was divisive, it was aggressive, it was thoroughly unpleasant and it did not represent the good people of Scotland, whom we saw weeks beforehand at the Commonwealth Games welcoming the world. And, yes, in some places there was an anti-English feeling, and Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon were the joint architects of that.

The division is having an impact even yet on Scottish businesses. Some of your Lordships will have seen the analysis of Standard Life the other day recounting their strengths, their opportunities and their weaknesses, and the risk still being independence. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, was absolutely right to say that we are going at this the wrong way round. This is piecemeal, reacting in the space of weeks to a situation that has taken generations to build up. The start of this long progress towards devolution may have been 300 years ago, but in my lifetime it was when two royal commissions were published—Kilbrandon and Wheatley. They were done separately; if they had been done together, the outcome would have been very different indeed.

As we move into this next phase of looking at the consequences of devolution, I would like us to concentrate on how we bring our society together. Some of that is bringing the business community together. Some of that is recognising that women very clearly voted for no. I had never gone to someone’s door and had someone say to me, “I’m voting yes”, and then shake her head and say, “I’m actually voting no, but I’m scared to say that I’m voting no”. There was a silent majority that was frightened to say how it was voting. I know of one lady who put yes stickers on her car because she was frightened of getting a stone through the windscreen, despite the fact that she was voting no. We must bring society together. We had the appalling situation of Louise Richardson, the principal of St Andrews University, being bullied by the First Minister’s office to support devolution. That is against everything that devolution is about.

I realise that these are difficult issues for all the United Kingdom. There is a democratic deficit in this country, and it applies to England. The way to resolve it is not with a sticking plaster; it is by looking in depth at the issues that we have to confront and by being confident enough about the strength of the union. We were all far too apologetic about the union. It was a great support to all of us who were involved in the campaign to receive messages from down south. I am in front of my noble friend Lady Quin, who was on the doorsteps more than I was, and my noble friend Lord Soley, who was very active in getting the English vote together. Let us not squander the benefits of the union. It has brought us together and served us well for many years. Do not let those who are doing a lap of victory in defeat undermine the union by the back door. We have a responsibility to stand up and defend it.

This House has a role to play. A constitutional convention sounds like a very good idea, but, frankly, what I would like to see is a royal commission on the constitution that looks in detail at the devolution settlement and at the role that your Lordships’ House can play in that as a House that represents and has the potential to represent—hopefully, directly elected—every part of the United Kingdom, with the background, experience and knowledge that this House brings together.

I keep hoping to escape Scottish politics—I went to the other end of the world to escape it—but thank goodness the people of Scotland made their voice known clearly and without question. We must not prevaricate. They have the mandate, which is for the union of this country. We must not squander it.

Scotland within the United Kingdom

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I agree that these proposals must stand the test of time and re-emphasise the fact that Scotland and the United Kingdom remain united. It would not be right for the people of Scotland, who voted so decisively to remain part of the United Kingdom, if we then adopted proposals that started to unpick and unravel the union. I do not believe that that is what people expect.

My noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, are right to draw attention to the fact that the Command Paper has been published ahead of time. I am not sure whether there ever was a budget, so I cannot say that it was within budget. My noble friend asked me to make commitments about sending things to every household. I am not sure that I can make such commitments on the hoof, but I take his point. It is an important point because I sometimes think that we have never been given the full credit for what Parliament passed in the Scotland Act 2012. Indeed, someone who was campaigning on the yes side said to me, “Why did you guys and girls never make more of the powers that have actually been transferred?” We have seen in the past few days, with the Finance Secretary John Swinney making tax proposals on the replacement of stamp duty, land tax and landfill tax, that these powers are now real. With the Scottish rate of income tax kicking in in April 2016, substantial powers are already in train and being delivered on the back of a commitment made by each of the three parties in their manifestos at the last election. So when some people question our willingness to hold to what we commit to, we need to point not only to what we did then, but also to what the Labour Government did in 1997.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very glad that the noble and learned Lord emphasised the 2012 settlement, because I think that is something that people were not aware of in the course of the referendum campaign. I also thank the noble and learned Lord for emphasising the scale of the majority for the no vote, because, in the past few weeks, I have sometimes wondered if we did actually win. We have learnt that those who shout loudest do not necessarily find themselves on the winning side. It was the quiet majority in Scotland that voted no and were sometimes frightened to admit that. Does the Minister agree that, regardless of the outcome of the Smith commission and the conclusions of all the major political parties in this House, that will not assuage the views of the separatists and that we will have to return again and again to emphasise the scale of the majority for remaining part of the United Kingdom?

On a specific point, the Command Paper contains a number of proposals for variations in income tax and other economic measures. What action will be taken to ensure that there is no adverse effect on macroeconomic policy, because any adverse change in macroeconomic policy will affect not just the people of Scotland but the people of all of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right to emphasise that there was a decisive outcome. Just as we are being held quite properly to give effect to the commitments which all parties made in the referendum, so the Scottish National Party should be held to the commitment made by the First Minister that the referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime or once-in-a-generation matter.

I have already named three Members of the other place. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the noble Baroness. Many Members of your Lordships’ House contributed much in terms of campaigning for this referendum and I wish to thank them too.

The noble Baroness asked about the macroeconomic powers and specifics with regard to proposals in the White Paper. It is fair to say that the purpose of the White Paper is to bring together the different proposals and put them in the context of the current situation. It is not therefore doing a subsequent analysis. It is very much a matter for the Smith commission to consider the implications for particular proposals. I have no doubt that a view from the noble Baroness would be properly considered by members of the commission.

Scotland: Independence Referendum

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lang, on achieving this debate, and on his excellent introductory speech.

Your Lordships’ House may not be aware that the noble Lord, Lord Lang, has already been under attack for having the audacity to mention the First World War. He has been under attack from a Mr Keith Brown, a member of the Scottish National Party and a Member of the Scottish Parliament. Frankly, that kind of attitude shames me as a Scot. Like many members of your Lordships’ House, I lost someone in the First World War. I lost my great uncle. I come from a tradition that has always gone out to help others. That is what the Scots are famous for. It is a sign of the contempt with which those of us who believe in the United Kingdom as a family are treated that such attacks are made on the noble Lord, Lord Lang.

I want to take up some of the themes of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. Like him, I thought the remarks of the Governor of the Bank of England yesterday were excellent. It is quite amusing—this came on the day after Mr Alex Salmond made a remark that England and Scotland will be great pals. The first thing that frightened me about that was the echo of the negotiations in the run-up to setting the level of the euro. I was there. A lot of male bonding went on. The night before the big debate, there was a football match on television. All the Finance Ministers disappeared off to watch the football match, so the sort of thing I was hearing was, “So-and-so was a good chap so he’ll stick to his word on the euro”, and “That guy over there, he was a very nice chap, very convivial in the bar—he will stick to his word on the euro”. I am sorry but that is not good enough. If you are going to enter into a currency union, we now know it is not enough to trust the word of others. You need a firm agreement. We were helped at that time by the five economic tests with which Britain judged whether we should enter the euro. We have to have a similar set of tests, set by the Treasury and the Bank, on what will be right for the rest of the United Kingdom. Do not let us forget—if Scotland votes yes, Scotland becomes a foreign country.

The other aspect is that if you are a best pal or you have a best pal, best pals know that family comes first. The family of the rest of the United Kingdom will be the moral and legal obligation of the Government of the rest of the United Kingdom. We are bandying about that phrase—United Kingdom. It will be pointless if there is a yes vote, because one part of the kingdom will have gone. We will have to find other terminology for the rest of the United Kingdom.

Fiscal rectitude will be absolutely essential in a currency union. You have to be absolutely confident that those in charge of that Government are fiscally correct. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, referred to the First Minister’s visit regarding the Ryder Cup. I applaud the activities to get the Ryder Cup. As noble Lords know, I have a great interest in tourism. It is a major Scottish industry and one of Britain’s major industries. Working together we have made it a major export earner. How on earth anyone other than Paris Hilton could have spent either £51,000 or £54,000 on accommodation for one person at the Ryder Cup, I fail to understand. What angers me also—as a Scot, because we always look after the bawbees—is Mr Salmond’s response that he was not interested in the fripperies; that our concern about whether it is £51,000 or £54,000 is “frippery”. That is twice the average wage. That is the kind of sweeping gesture—dismissing coherent argument—that has so debased the nature of this debate.

Fiscal rectitude will also mean keeping within public spending constraints, and because of those constraints and the commitment to a 3p reduction in corporation tax, revenues for expenditure elsewhere will necessarily be reduced. One area that significantly worries me, and my noble friend Lord Browne referred to it in relation to defence and the security of this country, is that our counterterrorism activity in Scotland will of necessity be reduced. We will not have access to the same degree of intelligence as at the moment, and we will have porous borders unless a huge chunk of public expenditure from the new Scottish Government is going to go to making our borders secure. That is a huge task. The borderland between Scotland and England is not Waziristan. You can cross it on a Sunday afternoon walk. It will be extremely difficult to secure those borders. There is an implication for the security of the rest of the United Kingdom if you have loose borders and a big land mass. We are a third of the land mass of the United Kingdom. It really increases the risk to great cities such as London.

I am also very conscious of the fact that the financial services sector is a crucial part of the Scottish economy. We have been slightly blinded because of the bad behaviour of the banks; we have forgotten that the other parts of the financial services industry are famous for their probity and are a significant part of the economy. They are all mobile—they can move in the blink of an eye. Why would they wish to remain in a small country when, as major players, they can operate elsewhere?

Perhaps it is because I am the first woman to speak in this debate that when I look at the implications for the United Kingdom, I immediately think of divorce. Divorce is never easy for any party. It is often the weaker party who comes out of it worse. We are not talking about independence, which sounds a nice positive thing. We are talking about separation and we are talking about divorce. That is probably why so many women in Scotland are increasingly in favour of the union.

I will end my remarks there because I know your Lordships are very anxious to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, address the House. She will be an asset to the House and I look forward to hearing her remarks.

Glasgow Helicopter Crash

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question. He highlights the fact that there have been some helicopter crashes and fatalities in recent times. Over a long period of time the safety record has generally been good. However, I am sure the whole House will agree that any accident must be thoroughly investigated if lessons can be learnt. It is also important to remind ourselves that helicopters fly many different types of operations and that a helicopter taking large numbers of passengers out to installations in the North Sea is somewhat different from the operation that was undertaken by police and other emergency helicopters in this situation. I am not sure that a generic inquiry would necessarily be the best way forward. However, it is important that there is a thorough investigation of the various accidents that have happened. I am in no doubt that the Air Accidents Investigation Branch and other relevant authorities will try to ensure that that thorough investigation takes place so that we can learn any lessons that are appropriate.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not a Glaswegian. However, all Scotland grieves with Glasgow after this terrible tragedy and is proud of how the people of Glasgow have responded. As parliamentarians, we have in the past few years seen the worst of us. On Friday night, with Jim Murphy, we saw the best of us. We recognise that when a young man puts himself in harm’s way he will live with the memory of that night for the rest of his life.

I will ask the Minister a question, which he may not be able to answer. As we know, these helicopters are used a lot by police and emergency services the length and breadth of Britain and beyond. Given that there is no indication as to what caused this accident and there is no black box recorder, are there any plans to ground these helicopters? If that is the case, what back-up would be available to emergency services throughout the country?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, first, I endorse and echo what the noble Baroness said about Jim Murphy. Those of us who saw that interview realised the spirit of someone whom many of us know. It was all too typical of Jim to do something like that. On the particular helicopter—the EC135—as I said, it is obvious that at this stage of the investigation the cause of the crash is unknown. That type of helicopter has been operated successfully, both in the United Kingdom and internationally, and has a good safety record. At this time we are not aware of any information that would lead us to consider this type as unsafe, but if at any time the European Aviation Safety Agency, which has the approval process, is concerned that the aircraft type is unsafe, it can ground all operations. However, that decision has not been taken.

Scotland: Independence

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Thursday 28th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My noble friend asks a very interesting question. Question 564 on page 558 of the document states:

“Arrangements for the House of Lords will be for the rest of the UK to decide but the House of Lords will no longer be involved in legislating for Scotland”.

My noble friend will understand that we have said, as a Government, that we do not intend to have any contingency planning. I share her belief that we are better together, but it is interesting to reflect that many of us are here as Peers of the United Kingdom. I think that we have to fulfil certain tax responsibilities to remain here. However, I do not think that we anticipate having a House of Lairds in Scotland.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I have no intention of becoming a foreign national but I have tried to find an answer to the question of what would happen, in the event of separation, to the more than 30,000 Civil Service jobs in reserve departments which are there as a consequence of the dispersal of Civil Service jobs in the 1970s. What is the policy of Her Majesty’s Government on siting Home Civil Service jobs in a foreign country?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, other than those staff who are involved in the diplomatic corps I cannot think of any precedent for that. The noble Baroness makes a very important point. I repeat that we are not contingency planning, nor are we, indeed, complacent. However, the parts of the White Paper on current Civil Service jobs located in Scotland that I have seen come to some very glib conclusions on what would happen and do not seem to take account of what those civil servants themselves would wish to do.

Scotland: Referendum

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I entirely endorse what the noble Lord has said about the importance of getting clear facts. He is right. I have seen the report published today by the Centre for Public Policy for Regions, which makes the point about the uncertainty of the oil revenue. That uncertainty was underlined by the Office for Budget Responsibility in its report last week. We hear representatives of the Scottish Government telling us that we are on the cusp of another oil boom, but in the Cabinet paper that the Finance Secretary presented to the Scottish Government last year, he said that there is a,

“high degree of uncertainty around future North Sea revenues, reflecting considerable volatility in production and oil prices”.

It would be useful if they said in public what they say in private.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords—

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, it is this side.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, as I indicated, the franchise is being determined by the Scottish Parliament. However, there was agreement that it should be based on the local government franchise, which means that it would include those registered for local elections in Scotland. Therefore, it would exclude people of Scottish origin living in other parts of the United Kingdom. The Scottish Government’s legislation would also seek to extend it to 16 and 17 year-olds residing in Scotland.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the date of the referendum coincides with the centenary of the Battle of Loos, where many brave Scottish soldiers gave their lives—my great-uncle, Matthew Lawrie, included—for every part of the United Kingdom? What reassurance can the noble and learned Lord give this House that Scottish men and women currently serving in the British Armed Forces will have the ability to vote in the referendum?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, that is an important issue, which we considered and reflected on during our debates on the Section 30 order. There are a number of ways in which service personnel can register to vote; many Scottish servicemen and servicewomen who are posted outside Scotland will remain entitled to be registered at an address in Scotland, either because they are resident there or because they have a service declaration for such an address. I understand that the Ministry of Defence does an annual advertisement of the service declaration, but I can assure your Lordships’ House that we will encourage the ministry to redouble its efforts in that advertisement in the run-up to, and for registration for, the referendum.

Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, I rise at this stage in the debate because a woman always likes to get, if not the last word, at least something near to that and it has been a singularly male debate so far. I make that point quite deliberately. If you look at the polling in Scotland, you will discover that, in the course of this debate about separation, women have increasingly become in favour of the union and men have remained static. Whether that is about “Braveheart” or the football, I do not know. The other side of the coin is that women are concerned about jobs and their children’s future. They recognise that there are always those who suffer when there is divorce—and what we are talking about is divorce.

Let me be blunt. If the First Minister thought that there was a majority for the break-up of Britain, the referendum would have taken place by now. We proved in 1997, with the devolution referendum, how quickly a referendum could be done. What the First Minister is counting on is either boredom on the part of the electorate—and there is a very strong chance that that will happen—or complacency on the part of those who favour the union. That has been commented on a couple of times this evening. There is a risk of complacency. I am fed up with taxi drivers telling me that there is no way Scotland is going to vote for the break up of Britain. There is an assumption that it is in the bag. It is not.

During the Scotland Bill deliberations in this House, I said—and I am not one for quoting myself but I quite like this quote—that we wanted a referendum without jiggery-pokery. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, laid out in his excellent speech, what we are discussing this evening is the potential for jiggery-pokery. We have had a bit of it before—and this is not a personal attack. We have had obfuscation on the question of the legal basis of Scotland’s role in Europe; we have had a situation where Hansard in the Scottish Parliament has been altered; and we have had misleading figures given on further education, to name but three examples. This is a critical decision for Scotland and a critical decision for the rest of the United Kingdom. We owe it to all of the people of these islands to make sure that it is done on a sound and sustainable basis so that the day after the referendum each one of us can turn around and say that we won or we lost, and the other side accepts the decision.

I support much of what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has said. I could not have followed him into the Lobby this evening, so I am glad he is not testing the opinion of the House, because I believe it would have led to delay. We have heard about the situation in Quebec, and I acknowledge what the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has said about the separation support going down, but a week is a long time in politics. Who knows what will happen between now and the referendum in 2014? It is critically important that we put aside petty divisions on these issues, which are much too big for the future of this country.

One very important issue that was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Reid and Lord Cormack, and others, is the question of allowing the vote to be made available to those in our Armed Forces. I do not know how they did it in 1945; they must have found a way to do it in 1945. Surely, it is not beyond the wit of a sophisticated democracy to find a way of giving our soldiers, men and women alike, the opportunity to vote in 2014, the year that marks the centenary of the First World War, when many of our families went to fight for a United Kingdom.

The challenge with the order that exists for us is to acknowledge, as a number of us have, that we should have been given an opportunity to debate these matters in this House. It should be recognised that we are a partnership. Those of us who sit in this House are unelected Members—but many of us have served our time at the other end of the corridor and have come from different parts of civil society in this country. We are entitled to a voice, and our colleagues at the other end of the corridor have a democratic right to that voice. It is unfortunate that they were not given that opportunity. I would say, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, that the Prime Minister was either naive or misadvised in the terms that he agreed to in the Edinburgh agreement. The opportunity to get an agreement that allowed for no jiggery-pokery was there, and I am afraid that he dropped the ball—and it is not often that I use sporting analogies.

Partnerships (Prosecution) (Scotland) Bill [HL]

Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

My Lords, I will not delay the Committee long. This is rightly an opportunity for the legal profession to look at the terms of the Bill in some detail. The reason for my interest stems from the fact that I know Rosepark home. I was born and brought up in Lanarkshire and I have friends and family who knew people who were lost in the Rosepark fire. The sense of anger that the Minister referred to is palpable in the community. These people have not been well served by Scottish justice because of a quirk in the law.

It is never easy reading the evidence or the result of a fatal accident inquiry, but in Rosepark home it was made clear that the failure to have adequate fire safety provision was the reason for the loss of life. There was one particular protocol that required the fire brigade should not be called until the source of the fire was identified. As a consequence, nine minutes elapsed before the fire brigade was notified and a further four minutes were lost because it was called to the wrong gate. The fatal accident inquiry therefore concluded that four of the 14 could have been saved had proper action been taken.

The Minister has already set out the three attempts that were made to bring the Balmer partnership to answer for these matters in court. On all three occasions the loopholes in the law allowed them, to put it bluntly, to get off the hook.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke]

Before I was interrupted—I will not say rudely—by your Lordships’ House, I was making the point that the Rosepark story is horrific. The loopholes in the law allowed a terrible injustice to happen to the families and friends of the 14 people who lost their lives.

In respect of the Bill, I regard my role to be to ask the daft questions. This is rightly a Bill on which the legal profession will predominate. Normally, I would call it a lawyer fest, but on this occasion it is entitled to be that because of the nature of the issues with which we are dealing. It is also important that the questions that family and friends are asking should be answered.

I have only one question, which may be daft but it probably will be the first of a number of such questions. The Minister referred to the fact that Clause 1 relates to a five-year period having elapsed, during which time the partnership could still be held in question. If that period was enlarged to 10 years, would it be possible for the Balmers to be brought before a court to answer for the breaches of the health and safety legislation that took place in Rosepark care home? That is the only point I wish to make but, undoubtedly, I will ask other daft questions during the passage of the Bill.