European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, told us earlier of a specific example of where our impact assessment was completely different from that of the EU.

[Baroness Kramer]

You can have differences, but the point is that those differences become relevant in the process of negotiation. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, pointed out that by being clear about our impact assessment we gained strength and opportunity and were able to position ourselves far more effectively in the negotiation. As someone who has spent a lifetime in negotiation, one thing that bothers me is constantly hearing negotiation discussed as if it were some sort of poker game. It is not; it is a grown-up activity. Making sure that our negotiators fully understand where they stand and what the issues are, and that that is done best by transparency, is fundamental. I say to those who simply dismiss the idea that we need to deal with our weaknesses as well as our strengths that that strikes me as just an extraordinary situation. If we do not recognise, discuss and understand our weaknesses, I do not know how we will put together a negotiating position.

I am not going to continue because these are only probing amendments. I look very much to the Government to take on board the underlying message, which is that many parts of the country and many sectors feel disengaged. The Government have said that they have certain priorities. When I talk to those in the financial services industry, they say, “We’ve been guaranteed top priority. Others will be sacrificed for us”. If that is the message, it is one that leaves people genuinely, and appropriately, worried. That discussion has to take place; we need to know on what basis all this will move forward.

Impact assessments are a normal part of a normal process. Transparency around such assessments is also a normal part of that process. I hope that the Government will recognise that and not try to pretend that they are entering into a poker game rather than a mature negotiation.

Thames Tideway Tunnel

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 24th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. Of course, the primary purpose of the tunnel is to reduce the impact of sewage pollution on the river, thus, I think, indirectly contributing to recreation by giving us a cleaner river. However, my noble friend’s question leads me to the broader point, which is that the tunnel on its own is not enough. We also need sustainable drainage systems. I was visiting some very innovative solutions today in Herne Hill. Those solutions are not able to deal with the whole problem on their own either, but they can directly contribute to flood—particularly surface water—and drought management, conservation, recreation and better public places.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I fully recognise the need for the tunnel but is the Minister aware that most of the boating and swimming on the tidal Thames is upstream of Hammersmith and that, even with the tunnel and additional improvements, there will still be discharges of raw sewage in this area? Therefore, can he tell me why the tunnel is stopping at Hammersmith?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, because the major problem is below there.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I want to comment on Amendment 143ZE. I have great respect for the CCCS and the work that it does, but there is also at least one commercial player—I am thinking of Payplan—which, I understand, provides free debt advice on a basis very similar to that of the CCCS, and in fact Citizens Advice frequently refers people to it to deal with debt management. Like the CCCS, it gets its funding from the creditor and not by turning to the individual who is in debt.

Although I entirely agree with all the statements that have been made about those—perhaps not all but certainly many—who advertise and often provide a very unsatisfactory and highly questionable service to individuals who are in debt, leaving them in a worse situation than when they started, I am slightly cautious about the suggestion that only the charitable sector can provide free debt advice. We need all the players we can get in this business and, provided they do it in the appropriate way, we should surely encourage all of them.

I question why the companies that seek to have the debts repaid to them should not be more influential in this process. My understanding is that they would far rather work with those who provide free debt advice than those who muddy the waters by essentially taking the fee-paying attitude and offering and delivering a less satisfactory solution for everybody involved.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, this group of amendments relates to the Money Advice Service and to charities involved in the provision of debt services. Amendments 143ZC, 143ZD, 143ZE all relate to the role of the MAS in the provision and co-ordination of debt advice.

Before I address the amendments, it may be helpful if I explain the MAS’s role in this area, which is to offer free and impartial information and advice on money matters to help people to manage their money better and to plan ahead. Through taking charge of their finances, fewer consumers should fall into unmanageable levels of debt. However, those consumers who do find themselves with high levels of debt will continue to need specialist debt advice.

The MAS, with its consumer financial education remit and national reach, is well placed to take a role in the co-ordination and provision of debt advice as part of its existing service. The Bill therefore includes provision to clarify that the MAS consumer education function extends to assisting members of the public with the management of debt and to working with other organisations to improve the availability, quality and consistency of debt services. However, the MAS does not directly deliver debt advice services itself, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said; rather, it delivers funding to providers of debt advice services, such as Citizens Advice, and it helps members of the public to access high-quality debt advice services.

Amendment 143ZC seeks to replace the existing requirement at new Section 3R(4)(f) under Clause 5 for the MAS’s consumer financial education function to include,

“assisting members of the public with the management of debt”,

with a requirement to include,

“providing high quality information about, and promoting awareness of, registered charities which provide debt services”.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that the Government are committed to the continued existence of the MAS and that there is no intention that the MAS should displace existing funding streams or existing services. The MAS intends to work with a large cross-section of the advice and creditor sectors to keep them up to date with its plans. I also reassure noble Lords that the MAS already signposts to other organisations which provide debt advice services and it will continue to be able to do this.

There are a number of amendments in this group and I have copious notes which address all of them. From the speech that the noble Lord made, I sense that I have dealt with his key points. If he wants me to go on, I shall be very happy to do so. However, if he is happy with that assurance, I hope that I can ask him to withdraw his amendment.

Aerospace Industry

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, yes, I share the noble Lord’s concern. Focusing specifically on defence, I think that it is true that defence spending is declining worldwide, so we have developed the talent retention system to retain skills that may be released as some companies in the sector lay people off. There is, after all, a shortage of skilled engineers nationally. Some defence suppliers have diversified and the growth in other areas will offset the downturn in this sector. It is also worth saying that aerospace companies have been successful in both rounds of the regional growth fund.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, as my noble friend the Minister will know, this is an industry that operates almost exclusively in dollars. Can he give us an assurance that last week’s arrangements between key central banks will ensure access to a steady supply of dollars for British aerospace industry and its global partners? As he knows, this has been a question mark hanging over the industry in the last few weeks.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. The Government are certainly focused on that issue.

Media: News Corporation

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Friday 15th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition suggested a time limit of two minutes. I responded that I thought that that was reasonable, and I hope that the House will agree to go with it.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I do not know whether it is appropriate to comment but everyone seems to be doing so. I understand that the convention of the House is that speeches are not read. Although that convention is frequently held in abeyance, it means that your Lordships all have the capacity to consider and present the key points of their statements, perhaps with an opportunity for people to read the full speech on a later occasion.

Postal Services Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I very much appreciate the thrust of the amendment. Obviously it is crucial to everybody in your Lordships’ House that whoever becomes the private partner or investor in the Royal Mail should have the resources to be able to continue the modernisation programme and make sure that it becomes a very successful company. From my guilty experiences of years as a corporate banker, I know it is extremely difficult to write a financial test that will do this. I understand that the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, has made a good thrust at it. However, the reality is that, unless there are also tests on cash flow and the income statement, and a variety of different tests looking at the balance sheet, there is not a hope of getting a grip. In the days of modern financial structuring, and with the range of options that are allowed under various accounting procedures, the chances that a financial test—even a carefully drawn one—would provide the ability for Ofcom to identify and winnow out a provider would be extremely limited. It will be a much more complex task that requires understanding the businesses and the broader scope of the work that they do. It requires ongoing monitoring; it requires a much more complex approach.

One of the comforts that perhaps some of us have in this House is that Ofcom is at least doing this with the media industries, and that it has that kind of business and financial understanding which ought to allow it to recognise if the private partners in the universal service provider have the appropriate financial structure and strength to be able to provide capital in the future. It seems to me that the thrust of the amendment is a very important one. However, in practice, this is not something that can be devised in a House like this and put in the Bill. There is comfort within the broader role that Ofcom plays. Its experience and expertise means that we should have every expectation that it would exercise real prudence in financial oversight of a universal service provider.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, for tabling Amendment 67, as it concerns a vital issue. I also hope that she found my letter on the matter following Committee useful even if she was not entirely satisfied by it. I am grateful to her for finding time to meet me to discuss the matter, which the Government take extremely seriously.

Amendment 67 proposes to give Ofcom the power to limit the indebtedness of the universal service provider in relation to the overall value of the company. The noble Baroness speaks from great experience on this issue and the noble Lord, Lord Young, expanded on her experience, which we value greatly. She made it clear how important it is that Ofcom has the power to monitor the finances of the universal service provider and to act where the situation demands. I very much acknowledge that point. I reassure her and your Lordships generally that Ofcom is well equipped to tackle the risk of unsustainable levels of debt within the universal service provider. As I said in Committee, Ofcom already has the power to impose designated USP conditions through Clause 35 that could include conditions akin to the condition 16 requirement in the Royal Mail’s existing licence. That condition does not allow the Royal Mail to do anything that,

“creates any significant risk that the necessary resources will not be available to”,

carry on its business.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, has mentioned, Ofcom also has powers under Clauses 38 and 53 to require information from the universal service provider and to set accounting conditions to ensure it can accurately monitor the costs of the universal postal service. I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, is concerned at the conditionality implied by my use of “could include”, in the context of a condition 16 requirement in the Royal Mail’s licence. There is no reason I can think of why the condition 16 requirement will not be so included. However, it will not be a matter for the Government. It will be a matter for Ofcom. I hope that the noble Baroness will find considerable comfort when I say that Ofcom’s primary duty for the post is to secure the provision of the universal service. If Ofcom considered that it was essential to use any or all of the powers that I have mentioned in order to deliver that objective, it would, as my noble friend Lord Eccles has said, be legally obliged to do so. I hope and believe that this is what the noble Baroness seeks to achieve through her amendment. With these assurances, I hope that she will feel able to withdraw Amendment 67.

Postal Services Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 16th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I will make a couple of comments. I very much support the employee ownership proposed in this Bill, which is a great improvement on the Bill that did not complete its progress through the previous Parliament, because it includes employee ownership and because the amount of ownership proposed is very substantial. The Government have more details on that than I do. For people working in Royal Mail, there are two issues of great concern. One is that they should be part-owners in a way that this share ownership will allow them to be, in order both to have a voice and to benefit from the profits that will flow from their efforts and from the future success of the company. It is also very important that there should be the maximum possible investment in the future of Royal Mail. Those two issues have to be balanced.

By expanding the number of shares that will be distributed to employees, the ownership potential for a private partner is reduced, which will reduce his, her or their willingness to put additional money into Royal Mail. I caution that there is a balance to be achieved here. Ten per cent is enough to provide a real voice and real reward, but potentially up to 90 per cent going out in some form to the private market is a real guarantee that the purchaser, whoever they are, will have to put in serious and large investment to make sure that this the company is very successful in future. That is surely what employees want, too.

The noble Lords, Lord Clarke and Lord Tunnicliffe, raised many issues that underscored the complexities of trying to set up share ownership for employees in an effective way. The more I heard about all those complexities, such as how shares should be distributed between employees, the more it struck me that the Bill is not the place to set up a structure such as that. It is good to have a discussion in this House, but with so many tax and legal issues there is a need for consultation and much greater involvement by many parties, including potential private partners as well as employees. We would be trying to make the Bill do too much by accepting these amendments, as well as some of those that we will debate later.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Clarke, for tabling their amendments, and also thank my noble friends for their contributions. I should perhaps declare an interest; my wife owns and jointly runs a web-based mail order company that uses Royal Mail to deliver its products.

I am delighted that the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Clarke, agree with the Government about the attractions of the establishment of an employee share scheme. I say that in the most welcoming and genuine sense. We all agree that this key feature of the Bill will help to improve employee engagement and the culture of the company. We should not lose sight of the fact that the overriding purpose of the Bill is to safeguard the universal service and to secure the future of Royal Mail. A key means of doing that will be by introducing private capital. In deciding on the size of the stake that should go to employees, as my noble friend Lady Kramer said, the Government have had to balance giving a meaningful stake to employees with the imperative of ensuring the private sector investment that the company needs. This is a matter of judgment.

I will put in context the commitment that we are making through Clause 3. The minimum 10 per cent share requirement in the Bill is the largest statutory employee share scheme of any major privatisation. The share is unprecedented, and there is no doubt that it is meaningful. Most major privatisations did not even refer to employee shares in their respective Bills. Furthermore, the share schemes that eventuated offered smaller stakes: 5 per cent in the case of BT and British Gas, and less than that for the other utilities of electricity and water. Only Rolls Royce and BA came close, at 10 per cent and 9.5 per cent respectively. However, we are committed to at least 10 per cent.

I share with my noble friend Lady Kramer experience of advising companies in similar situations. I did that for nearly 20 years, and my experience convinced me that a requirement that employees should own at least 20 per cent, or even 25 per cent, of the shares in the company, as the amendments suggest, would jeopardise getting the investment that the company needs simply by virtue of the substantial size of that stake. We therefore unfortunately cannot accept the increases to the size of the employee share scheme proposed by these amendments. I hope that noble Lords will accept that what is offered is offered in good faith, and that to commit to more would prejudice our ability to achieve a sale.

The requirement to pay equal dividends to all participants of the scheme certainly has attractions. However, Clause 3 is designed to maintain as much flexibility as possible to design the right scheme. We would be ill advised to set in stone the form of an employee share scheme until we have more certainty on the form of the private sector investment. Furthermore, there are other equally sensible methods for determining the allocation of shares and therefore dividend payments. An example of another equally sensible method is length of service, for example. I therefore urge noble Lords not to restrict options at this stage.

The noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Clarke, asked about the specific route to be followed. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, helpfully compared, for example, share trusts against individual ownership. This subject will come up again in subsequent debates on amendments. In brief, some of the benefits of share trusts are that they can be structured to last indefinitely. Depending on their design, they would always keep the capital value of the shares within the trust. Against that, this may not be the appropriate form of scheme to motivate individuals, and we will assess the merits of a share trust and other designs at the appropriate time. Individual ownership clearly offers individuals the opportunity to build up a share pot while they are employed in the business, which they can benefit from when they retire or move on. Individual shares can also be better for employees, in that they offer a greater sense of ownership and can be more tax efficient. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, suggested other options, which I found very helpful. This emphasises why it is important at this stage that we keep our options open.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, specifically pointed out some risks of going down the route of issuing shares to employees. As I have said, the exact form of the scheme is still being developed and will be likely to be dependent on the form of the private sector investment. If the share scheme allows for individual ownership of shares by employees, we will obviously explore the most appropriate way of encouraging employees to keep their shares for the long term. Many of the tax efficiencies associated with those schemes relate to a certain holding period, which could be incorporated into the scheme rules. Noble Lords should not assume that employees will automatically sell their shares. In its written evidence to the other place, ifs ProShare noted that two-thirds of BT employees retained their shares rather than selling them off.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, was concerned that there is no guarantee in the Bill that employees will get any shares until the Government have sold their entire holding. Employee shares are an integral part of our policy for Royal Mail, and we have committed to ensuring that there are shares within the scheme at the same time as private capital is introduced. This is the strongest legislative commitment of any major privatisation. The exact sequence of events in such a large and complex sale is difficult to predict at this stage. This means that we need to maintain a degree of flexibility about precisely when during the process the scheme is set up, so as not to complicate that process even further.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, quoted Employee Ownership Association evidence to the Commons Public Bill Committee, saying that 10 per cent was not enough. I might give another quote from evidence to that committee. Alexy Armitage of ifs ProShare said:

“Although they might not hold as much as 10 per cent, or more than that, they like the fact that they own shares in their company and they see that as a benefit and a worthwhile thing to do”.—[Official Report, Commons, Postal Services Bill Committee; 9/11/10; col. 71.]

That is at all levels, not just executives; it goes right through those organisations.

The noble Lord, Lord Clarke, was concerned about how to ensure that management does not get all the shares. I think that was the nub of his concern. He makes a very important point. As I have said, it is too early to get into the specifics, but we imagine that management will be able to benefit from the share scheme as well as other employees. However, the point is to incentivise employees and to give most of the shares to management would simply destroy that purpose; that is absolutely not the intent.

The future ownership of Royal Mail, by both private investors and its employees, will be inextricably linked. Within the important boundaries set by Clause 3, the exact size and form of the scheme will, therefore, be informed by the type and detail of the transaction. It is very important that we keep our options open, for the reasons mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, among other things. I assure noble Lords who have taken part in this debate that their suggestions will be taken into account. I, therefore, ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

Banks: Mutual Ownership

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord De Mauley

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I think I can perhaps go a little further in saying that the Government are implementing a number of legislative reforms that will allow financial mutuals greater flexibility to develop and expand, and so promote mutual ownership in financial services. These include such things as completing the passage through Parliament of the Legislative Reform (Industrial and Provident Societies and Credit Unions) Order, commencing the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010, and bringing Northern Ireland credit unions under FSA regulation. As I have said, the Independent Commission on Banking will also consider competition in the banking sector and make recommendations on this as part of its report.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware of the excellent report in 2006 by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Building Societies and Financial Mutuals that identified the beneficiaries of demutualisation as essentially the directors, who saw their remuneration go up. Among the biggest losers were those who live more to the financial margins, require basic bank accounts and are at risk of financial inclusion. Will he ask that when a future is considered for Northern Rock and others that this test of serving the financially excluded is part of the specification and that the work that mutuals do in this area is recognised?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I will certainly take my noble friend’s comments back to the department.