National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord Davies of Brixton

Report stage
Thursday 5th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I thought I said in my earlier remarks that there will be a marginal effect: I accept that, although we do not actually know what that marginal effect will be. It is all hypothetical at the moment. One thing we do not know from the OBR figures is quite what the reaction will be and how people will adjust their behaviour between now and when this comes in.

I accept the noble Baroness’s point but, as I say, nobody likes paying tax and nobody wants to pay more tax. If you ask people whether they want to pay more tax they say no, but it has to fit in with the Government’s overall financial strategy.

Of course, only some people gain an advantage from salary sacrifice. Many private employers just do not offer it. The number is increasing all the time, which is part of the problem because it is increasing the cost. Nobody in the public sector benefits from salary sacrifice. We can, and will, have an interesting debate about public service pensions, but noble Lords should understand that it is unequal that people in the private sector can take advantage of salary sacrifice but people in the public sector cannot.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I thought it might be best to combine standing as a winder and talking for a few moments to the two amendments in this group that are in my name. I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who made an incredibly powerful speech to introduce the whole series of amendments in this group. I thank her for signing my two amendments, Amendments 12 and 26. Amendment 26 is the Northern Ireland parallel to Amendment 12, so we need not treat it separately. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Altrincham and Lord Londesborough, for signing my amendments. The noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, would also have signed them had space been permitted on the Marshalled List.

I also talked very extensively, both at Second Reading and in Committee, and I will try to discipline myself not to repeat those comments, particularly because speaker after speaker has so fully described the issues that are at stake. I find myself in complete disagreement with the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, which does not happen very often, but I think that the Government will recognise that, for a whole series of political leanings around the House, there is very common ground on this issue.

My Amendment 12, as others have described, would lift that limit on salary sacrifice contributions subject to NICs relief to £5,000 a year. I discussed in detail in Committee why I talked to various people and came to that number, but the key point I want to emphasise—others have made it, but let me make it again—is that it would strongly benefit younger people and quite low earners. We are looking primarily at the second decile of earners, who are probably on their first or second pay rise. They are still low earners and still living a life much more akin to that of a student. They are sharing accommodation and do not yet have mortgages, children or families. Many have, very responsibly, with the nudge that is given by this tax relief, been encouraged to start seriously saving for pensions, well in excess of that £2,000 benchmark that the Government propose.

As these people move on in their lives and acquire children and mortgages, their pension savings drop. Those very early savings that then have a chance to accrue over a working lifetime are very significant in the end result to the quality of pension that they receive. That is why we took an approach that we thought would, in a very simple way, enable this group of people to continue with that incredibly positive behaviour.

In this group, I will certainly support the amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, will choose to move. I want to make particular reference to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, on student loans. It is absolutely essential. The Government have recognised—at least, this is what I understood from the Minister’s responses in Committee and at Second Reading—that the Bill quite unintentionally puts serious additional costs on to graduates. I find it absolutely ridiculous that, having recognised that there is an unintentional impact and that it is problematic, the Government are not correcting it in this Bill. As far as I can understand, they are waiting for some future piece of legislation to make that change.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

May I just press the noble Baroness on the point she made about serious additional costs? Would she care to quantify what those serious additional costs are?

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Let me refer back to the example I gave in Committee. The noble Lord will be aware, on that additional contribution, that the graduates are paying the 8% additional in NICs but, on top of that, because it pulls them into scope of having to make repayments at the margin, the impact is 17%. It has a huge impact on graduates who are now just beginning to reach the level where they would have anticipated they would start to repay, and they suddenly hit this really serious spike. I think he has seen the numbers that some of the people have sent to us, and the Chartered Institute of Taxation could help him with those numbers if he wants to look at them. The Government, I think, recognise that problem but my answer is to fix it.

National Insurance Contributions (Employer Pensions Contributions) Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord Davies of Brixton

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th February 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

Yes; I thank the noble Lord for his advice. As I said, I have operated the system myself, and so he is really just making my point: the structures are there to deal with multiple employments. It is not being introduced to the issue by this particular measure. Obviously it would be more complicated with this measure—I accept that, and I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response on that issue—but it is not a new issue.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, as with the previous group, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, made a comment on what he thought was Lib Dem policy; it might be—I am just not sure. We have discussed simply kicking out all this complexity and having a flat rate of relief on pensions. After listening to the last debate, I think that that has probably accumulated a lot of votes from around this Room, because the complexity that we have had described under this group of amendments is absolutely extraordinary. The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, referred to the banana skins, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, talked about it being a nightmare. I am troubled that all of this is being left to consultation with the industry and to future regulation and future guidance, as if it can all be absolutely sorted with a bit of quiet attention. But we have heard the problems of how you deal with the many cases where people have multiple employers.

The noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, made it clear that it is a relatively small handful of people who at present have to be dealt with through the Department of Work and Pensions to make sure that there is not a complexity. However, this would now apply to all kinds of people across a very wide range of activities and income. Trying to deal with the complexity of all these measures and delaying that has got us very disturbed. It is a bad principle for legislation. It is not that there is not a role for regulation and guidance, but that essentially should just be doing the finesse on a policy that has been clarified, whether it is in primary legislation, through evidence put before Parliament or through Statements made by the Ministers.

I think we have a real concern that this is going to turn out to be absolutely unworkable. The consequences of that, both for public finances and for individual decisions made by people, probably means that this legislation will collapse at some point. We ask the Minister to go back to the department and make it clear that clarity is absolutely necessary. If there are problems here that can never be reasonably and sensibly resolved, they should be recognised at this stage.

Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Debate between Baroness Kramer and Lord Davies of Brixton

Report stage
Wednesday 15th October 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, obviously we are pleased to see these amendments. We want to look much more closely to understand how far they go to meet some of the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Palmer earlier in the process of the Bill. I have an amendment in a future group that reflects our deep concern, particularly at the absence of transparency. The very thought that the original legislation essentially meant that people would have no idea that account statements had been handed over to the investigators—not only during the period when the investigation might be active but they would be permanently kept uninformed that their information had been handed over—felt to us like a complete breach of the rights of the individual, fundamentally breaking the bond of trust between a banking institution and its account holders.

We will want to look closely at these amendments and their implications. We may return to this issue at a later stage, but at this point we are glad that the Government are taking steps to deal with some of the features that most concerned us.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I expressed considerable concern about this part of the Bill in Committee. I have studied the amendments that have been put forward and, like the noble Baroness who has spoken on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, will reserve my position, since we can come back to this. The amendments, which we have been told came forward last week, seem like an improvement, but the question is whether they are sufficient. It is easy to spot what is there; the most difficult part of the process is spotting what is not, and I need a bit more time to achieve that. So, although I am in no sense speaking against the amendments, I am reserving my position on the overall effect of this clause and the objections that I raised in Committee. I will say a bit more on the next group of amendments, which are more germane.