Financial Services and Markets Bill [HL]

Baroness Kramer Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 6th July 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to open day 5 of Committee on the Financial Services and Markets Bill. In moving Amendment 130, which is in my name, I will also speak to Amendments 131 and 168. This is the latest round of AI and technology amendments to the Bill. It is a Bill that is curiously silent on these subjects. At least today there is something timely about my intervention in that, as I am on my feet, across town Sheldon Mills is launching his review into artificial intelligence in financial services—more of which presently.

Amendment 130 seeks to require financial services firms to have regard to all the issues around digital and operational resilience across all their activities. I know that the Minister in his response will refer to the cyber resilience Bill, which is coming to your Lordships’ House in a fortnight. Indeed, there is much in that Bill to commend. But in consideration of the significant impact and position of financial services in the UK economy, I believe that it would be helpful to have something about digital and operational resilience in this Bill.

We are not just talking about foreign states or negative acts from international adversaries; we are talking about issues around supply chain, third-party overreliance and concentration risk on particular providers—for example, in the cloud. Circumstances change and financial services institutions, believing that things will always be as they are, may find themselves extraordinarily exposed by the flick of a switch with perhaps only 90 minutes’ notice. I ask the Minister to consider this when he responds and state, in respect of financial service institutions’ significant contribution and place in the UK economy, whether he agrees that clauses in the Bill pertaining directly to these subjects would be helpful in our endeavours.

Amendments 131 and 168 are on artificial intelligence. Certainly, some of these concepts are covered in Sheldon Mills’ review. Given the proliferation and already deep penetration of artificial intelligence into financial services institutions—and, indeed, its use by not only sophisticated but retail and individual investors—will the Minister not agree that considering AI, not just in these clauses but throughout the Bill, would be beneficial to all those involved in financial services? When we say, “all those involved in financial services”, we could just as easily say “everybody”. The principles are clearly set out in Amendment 131, which takes us to the issue that I have raised on previous days around the Government’s approach to artificial intelligence. As stated, that is a domain-by-domain approach, yet there is nothing currently within this Bill.

Amendment 168 returns to an issue of which colleagues will be well aware, because I raised it when we deliberated on the Financial Services Act 2021 and FSMA 2023. That is to have an officer responsible for AI in all financial services institutions that develop, deploy and use AI—in other words, pretty much all financial services institutions. This is not cumbersome; it is not about compliance and it is certainly not about putting burdens on smaller firms—the proportionality principle would mean that we would be talking about a function rather than an individual—nor is this about delegation or abdication of the board’s responsibility, or indeed the senior managers’ responsibility, to the business. This is about having a point person: somebody who can orchestrate, who can co-ordinate and who can have that crucial horizontal view across an organisation, to assist internally and indeed present externally as to how AI is being used and deployed, for the benefit both of AI use internally and of customers.

To conclude, without having clauses on AI in the Bill, I believe that the legislation will be chronically insufficient for the challenges of our time. That is not the challenges of next year or five years’ time: AI is already impacting financial services right now. To give one example, how can we consider the consumer duty without considering how AI impacts on all elements of that? The Mills review has much good in it, but this legislation is before us today, and I believe that we have an opportunity to thread AI through it for the benefit of individuals, of institutions, of all of our financial services and, through that, of the entire economy of the United Kingdom. I look forward to the Minister’s response. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I was delighted when I saw that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, had put down these amendments, because it is so apparent, as he has clearly stated, that the whole issue of digital and AI is missing from this Bill. Because of the pace of change and the impact—and strength of the impact—across all our financial services, this is an issue that has to be dealt with and grasped with some sense of urgency.

Like the noble Lord, I have been very interested in the Mills review, although, as it was published today, I have only had time to skim its summaries and some of the newspaper references to it. It is clear that, certainly from Sheldon Mills’ perspective—I think that most of us have, one way or another, dealt with Sheldon Mills over the years and very much respect his judgment—the FCA may well be short of relevant powers in dealing with AI. He noted particularly a lack of powers under the critical third-parties regime, which made sense to me. In his recommendations, he also raised issues around the regulatory perimeter, another area that we have raised on more than one occasion.

In recent years, it has not been uncommon—though I dread it—for the Government to present on Report amendments that deal with an area that has been missed from the body of a Bill in Committee. On this Bill, that would allow a period of thought and the opportunity to absorb and consider what is presented in the Mills review. Since financial services Bills do not come around that often, I very much hope that the Minister will seriously consider taking advantage of the Bill to get those kinds of protections in place. If he fails to do that, we might collectively have to come forward with something on Report. Frankly, given the intricacy, detail and complexity, this is an area where the Government coming forward with an answer would, I think, be welcomed across the House and very much, I hope, within the spirit and theme of the amendments presented by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes.

[Lord Altrincham (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his comments today on AI and digital resilience and for his comments on previous days. I declare my interest as the director of South Molton Street Capital, which is regulated by the FCA.

These amendments raise an interesting point about emerging technologies, digital resilience and the use of artificial intelligence in financial services, to be covered, as we have discussed, by the Mills review and the FCA itself. We will return to this subject in a later group, when my noble friend Lord Ranger of Northwood and the Opposition Front Bench will speak to our own amendments, particularly in relation to digital assets. We will also comment on supervision in a later group.

Both digital resilience and the proper use of AI are important. However, I am not convinced that this is the right way or the right place to tackle these issues. Our concern is that this could add another layer of regulation on firms that are already subject to a substantial body of obligations in this area. Financial services firms already operate under a wide range of frameworks relevant to AI governance, digital resilience and technology risk. The consumer duty, which we have touched on already, requires firms to deliver good outcomes for retail customers. The senior managers and certification regime provides a framework for accountability and governance. The FCA senior management arrangements and controls already require firms to maintain appropriate systems, controls, governance and risk management. Firms are subject to data protection law, including rules around automated decision-making and profiling. They are subject to equality law where discriminatory outcomes arise. They are subject to operational resilience requirements, outsourcing and third-party risk expectations, and, in some contexts, more specific requirements around algorithmic trading and market conduct.

We should therefore be cautious before adding new statutory requirements on top. That is particularly important because technology develops quickly and a prescriptive regulatory framework can rapidly become out of date. It can also lead to duplication, uncertainty and compliance activity that is focused more on satisfying the form of the requirement than managing the underlying risk.

I would be grateful for reassurance from the Minister about how Amendment 130 would interact with existing operational resilience and outsourcing requirements, and whether the Government believe that further statutory provision is needed.

On Amendment 131, the issues of transparency, bias, human oversight, and redress are all important, but they also overlap with existing duties on fair treatment, governance, data protection, discrimination and consumer outcomes. I would be reluctant to support an approach which simply adds a new AI-specific regime without first demonstrating that the existing framework is inadequate.

On Amendment 168, I understand the attraction of having a named individual responsible for AI governance. Accountability matters, but in financial services we have the SMCR regime to address supervision, and that regime is already quite complex, as we will address in a later group. A mandatory AI officer would probably cut across existing accountability structures in conduct, compliance, operations, risk, data and product governance. It could, in fact, cut across all existing supervisory positions.

This group raises important questions about the future of financial regulation. We must be alert to new risks, but we must also be careful not to respond to every emerging technology by simply adding another layer of regulation. The better approach is to ensure that regulation is proportionate, technology-neutral where possible and focused on real outcomes. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, makes so much sense to me on this issue. Having gone through the struggles of probate, I think that anything that will make it easier and more straightforward is good. I have worried since the announcement of the change that came with the last Budget, which brought pension pots into inheritance tax, that all kinds of consequences would significantly follow because most people who thought that they had a fairly straightforward settlement upon death will now find that they have handed a very complex picture on to their executors.

I want to put in a plea from personal experience: where there are people who have more than one nationality, or tax residency in one country and nationality in another, the nightmare becomes even more acute. I am not an adviser but I will give this advice: if one is aware that someone close is likely to die, it has almost become necessary to create a separate savings account to deal with all the relevant tax payments because it is so long before probate can be completed, particularly if that is in more than one jurisdiction. I felt at one point that I virtually lived at Kingston Crown Court because I was so often having to get new and updated copies of the death certificate to satisfy some new requirement from someone somewhere else. That is a painful and difficult time, but what the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, suggests seems straightforward and effective. Even if it deals with only one small piece, that is something.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Mackinlay of Richborough for tabling Amendment 142B. I am especially sorry to hear of the difficulties that he faced with his father’s estate. That is typical. When people die, their loved ones and executors often have a difficult time, and one of those difficulties is the delay that they often encounter with probate, as I know from family experience, and as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.

There is both an emotional toll and a worry as to how to pay any IHT within the six-month window. Hopes that this might be extended by the Chancellor to 12 months have now been dashed, so this is a timely amendment. As I understand it, the issue is that, when someone dies, their bank, building society or investment accounts are frozen. Executors may then need to pay inheritance tax before probate can be granted, but they may need probate in order to access the funds from which that tax would be paid. The IHT423 direct payment scheme is designed to address that problem by allowing inheritance tax to be paid directly from the deceased’s bank, building society or investment account to HMRC before probate is granted. The difficulty, as we have heard, is that participation in that scheme is not consistent across all relevant financial institutions. That situation may mean that people have to find funds elsewhere, use personal savings, as we have heard, arrange borrowing or enter into more complicated interim arrangements.

The amendment rightly seeks consistency. It would require the FCA to make rules ensuring that the relevant regulated financial institutions facilitated the payment of inheritance tax through the IHT423 direct payment scheme. There may of course be operational legal issues that the Government will want to consider, but the basic principle seems right: if inheritance tax must be paid before probate, it would be in the interest of all if this inconsistency could be sorted out as a matter of urgency.

We should bear in mind that the interest mounts up at a punitive rate—4% above base rate, so that is 7.75% at present—and that it affects thousands of households every year. The Minister will know that more generally it will be a difficult year for those paying IHT, with IHT payable on pension pots from April 2027. That is all the more reason to show flexibility and sort out this issue, and to use the Bill to do so if that is necessary. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

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[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

My Lords, I am sorry that I was not able to be here last Wednesday for the debates on the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and others that proposed the creation of an office for financial regulatory accountability. I have read the debates in Hansard and there is a remarkable similarity to three years ago when we debated similar amendments. This was a significant error in 2023 during the passage of the last Financial Services and Markets Act. It would have been a significant improvement to the ability of Parliament to hold the regulators to account—a complement rather than a replacement.

I shall touch briefly on the ability to scrutinise the proportionality of specific rules. I shall look closely in Hansard at the Minister’s comments during the second group, when he seemed to agree that the specific scrutiny of the rules is in fact important, contrary to the approach that the Bill now takes. This holding of the regulators to account by Parliament has become only more important and more difficult, I think, as we give yet more responsibilities to the regulators under the Bill with, as we have heard, the move of the PRS, the Consumer Credit Act and so on.

Amendment 142 would provide an alternative way of achieving something similar to the amendments that were discussed on Wednesday that might perhaps be easier for the regulators and the Government to accept. It proposes the creation of offices of regulatory evaluation within both the FCA and the Bank but, unlike the office for financial regulatory accountability proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, it would lie within the regulator, although it would probably have much the same role. Whichever way we do it, I am sure the Minister will have heard loud and clear the concerns that are shared across the Committee about the accountability of the regulators to Parliament, another of the main themes that are emerging as we load ever greater responsibilities upon them.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I cannot improve on the three speeches that have been made. I rise simply to make clear that on these Benches, we think that this amendment is really important.

We can see in Committee that it is purely random that we have the capacity to raise many of the issues. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and my noble friend Lady Bowles have a deep understanding of the market, as does the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, but it is purely random that they happen to be in the Lords. If we did not have the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, we would struggle to deal with many of the issues around digital assets and the revolution that is taking place. We have no system of ensuring that, in any part of the parliamentary process, there is the capacity to get to the relevant pieces of information, understand the underlying issues and play the role that Parliament should be playing—whether at committee level, with a Special Standing Committee, or as associated with the passage of a piece of legislation. None of that can be done without genuine, adequate and well thought-through information.

Looking at other Parliaments around the globe, in the US, the Senate and Congress have vast numbers of staff available to make sure that those who represent the voice of the people are truly informed in great detail with proper understanding of the articles that are before them and the regulations that they seek to uphold or overturn. We lack this here. We are still an amateur body, which is not appropriate for a modern society. This is a very significant change, but it must be a change in the right direction. From these Benches, we very much support it.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, we support the principle behind this amendment. It follows the same broad logic as the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Bridges. If the financial regulators are to exercise very significant powers, there must be a proper mechanism through which they can be evaluated and held to account.

This amendment seeks to require the FCA, the Bank of England and the PRA to establish offices for regulatory evaluation. Those offices would review the regulators’ actions, including rule-making, supervision, monitoring and enforcement. Only the changes to rules are currently considered by the cost-benefit analysis panels. The offices would be led by directors with a degree of independence from the boards and executive structures of the regulators themselves. They would report regularly to the Treasury and to relevant parliamentary committees. My noble friend Lady Noakes quotes an interesting precedent of such arrangements at the World Bank, the IMF and the European Investment Bank—all long-standing pillars of the international economic community.

It is good to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, to the debate, but this amendment raises very much the same issues as those that we discussed last Wednesday—at col. 501GC in Hansard, for those who were not present—with regard to the amendments from my noble friend Lord Bridges and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. I was pleased to hear that the Minister has agreed to reflect further on the issues raised and to meet, with the Economic Secretary, the Financial Services Regulation Committee later this week. I look forward to the results but, in the interests of time, will not repeat what I have already said on the subject.

All these amendments raise a fundamental point. We are placing great trust in the regulators. That trust must be matched by transparency, evidence and accountability. Today’s cross-party amendment provides another route for the Minister to consider.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 146, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Altrincham, is a modest and probing amendment. It follows the discussion we had last week on speeding up the senior management and certification regime. It does not seek to change the regime immediately. It would require the Treasury to carry out a review and publish a report within 12 months on whether the new notification framework for senior manager appointments could be used where an individual had already been approved for the same or a similar function, including within the same corporate group.

The amendment echoes my noble friend Lord Howard of Rising’s amendment on a fast-track authorisation process for applicants who have been authorised before, but it would look at how that was working in practice a year after the Act came into effect. The Minister gave a hint that he was sympathetic to my noble friend Lord Howard and would be talking to the FCA about this, so I am hoping we can make some progress on this amendment.

We have heard from the industry that there are several problems with the SMCR regime. One concern is that the regime was originally intended to apply to a relatively limited number of senior people within a firm. Over time, however, roles have become more complicated, responsibilities have overlapped and some organisations have ended up needing a much larger number of people to receive SMCR approval. Regulation should not make legitimate business harder to do and should not slow down sensible appointments where there is no obvious additional risk, yet that is too often the practical effect of the regime as it stands.

The specific issue is what has sometimes been described as SMCR passporting. Where an individual has already been approved, has a strong regulatory track record and is moving into a genuinely comparable role, it seems sensible to explore whether a streamlined notification process could be used. That would have several advantages: it would reduce duplication, it could speed up appointments, it could reduce costs to firms, it could make it easier for groups to move experienced people into appropriate roles and it could allow regulators to focus their resources on genuinely new, higher-risk or more complex appointments. That is the point of the amendment. It does not prescribe the answer. It asks the Treasury to review the position, consult the FCA and the PRA and other relevant parties and report back to Parliament.

If we want the UK to have a regulatory system that supports growth and competitiveness, we need an approval process that is rigorous but also efficient. We should not require firms to repeat the same process unnecessarily where the regulator has already assessed the individual and where the new role is substantially comparable. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could give us some reassurance on this important matter and agree that an ex post review could be a helpful way of ensuring the direction of travel that I know we both want. I beg to move.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I am always in favour of trying to provide streamlining, and this amendment offers a common-sense approach to that. However, an issue that I want to take up with the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, is that the focus of the FCA should always be on new hires, not previous ones. The ongoing fit and proper process is crucial, particularly if we are going to have lighter-touch regulation as people move from one position to another, but that ongoing process is critical. Perhaps the Minister could expand on that because I am not quite clear about how all the various changes in FCA rules change what has been an annual review process but now gives more flexibility in what that means.

I shall give some examples. I am not sure that when Sir Fred Goodwin—he was not “Sir” then, obviously—was appointed as chief executive of RBS anyone recognised that he was going to get caught up in what I think most people would describe as an addiction to completely irrational acquisitions, which eventually led to the collapse of a major bank. I am not sure that when Jes Staley was hired to be CEO of Barclays people were aware of the significance of his extensive involvement with Epstein. I am not sure that when the Reverend Paul Flowers was approved as chairman of the Co-operative Bank people were conscious that he was potentially someone who would become seriously addicted to and affected by a number of drugs, notably crystal meth. In other words, there is an ongoing process that is critical; it should not be only a one-time process. I hope that will be absorbed into the thinking if this amendment moves forward. The ongoing process is vital. Fit and proper is not a one-time-only process.

[Lord Massey of Hampstead (Con)]

My Lords, I rise quickly to support this amendment, which is exactly the sort of streamlining amendment we are looking to achieve in this Bill. I politely take issue with the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on people such as Fred Goodwin, Jes Staley or the Reverend Flowers. The FCA would not have picked up those problems; they all emerged much later. We should give credit to member firms for being able to judge who they should be hiring. If they are already licensed, why would notification not be sufficient?

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[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

I endorse the concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, about the political pressure that the Treasury will be under to recognise certain countries. Without adequate scrutiny, wider advice and deep analysis, the problem of overleveraging in some banking systems, despite them appearing perfectly respectable, would expose the UK and its financial sector to the dangers of debt and contamination.

I therefore have doubts about the economic implications of the Treasury making these calls on account of political reasons. We see this all the time, whether on international agreements—I sit on that committee—or on European affairs, whose committee I previously sat on. There is constant pressure by Governments to sign treaties that are rather bad for the UK and its various sectors, including financial services. I would have concerns if there were no adequate scrutiny and no proper advice taken on whether such recognition is a good thing for our systems.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. As the Committee will know, I have expressed before my concern about heading towards a lowest common denominator. The constraints on the engagement of the regulator and Parliament in a process of recognition of overseas regimes is crucial. It provides transparency and challenge, both of which are constantly necessary. So these are well-drafted amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes.

I want to go a little further. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, is not in his place, but he has tabled Amendment 164D, which would go further in seeking to instruct the Secretary of State to establish memoranda of understanding with a whole series of regulatory authorities. I have significant concerns about that, without the same set of constraints. We must be aware that, at the moment, there is fragmentation in the world in which we are living. International agreements are often treated as “pick and mix”. I object when we do that in the UK, but it is certainly a behaviour that we are watching in the United States at all times. We can see it with the development of AI and the various steps that the White House is taking. It is hard to work out whether or not it will go for AI licensing. A memorandum of understanding that passively accepted whatever the United States decided was the appropriate standard would trouble me hugely.

This is a very good set of amendments. Although the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and I often take very different positions on regulation and the primacy of financial stability, in this instance, she is absolutely right. There is nothing more troubling than reading all three objectives be put on a par. That has been my great fear. Anyone looking back on what happened in the 2008 crash will see that a focus on competition and growth without any focus on financial stability led to a crisis that I suspect nobody in this Room wishes to see again.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, as this is the last group, I too wish the Minister a very happy birthday. He will be glad to know that, on this side, we think this is an important part of the Bill. The overseas recognition regime, which would replace the arrangements put in place as we left the EU, could provide a valuable mechanism for recognising overseas regulatory regimes and allowing certain firms, services or market infrastructure from other jurisdictions to access the UK market without having to duplicate regulatory requirements unnecessarily.