All 1 Debates between Baroness Kingsmill and Lord Wolfson of Tredegar

Wed 10th Nov 2021
Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill
Lords Chamber

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage part two

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Debate between Baroness Kingsmill and Lord Wolfson of Tredegar
Baroness Kingsmill Portrait Baroness Kingsmill (Lab)
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Is the Minister saying therefore that it will be a mandatory sentence unless there are exceptions?

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar Portrait Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)
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Unless the exception is met, this is the sentence that will be imposed. I do not want to split hairs with the noble Baroness, but it is not mandatory in that sense. It is a minimum sentence which has to be imposed unless the conditions are met.

Baroness Kingsmill Portrait Baroness Kingsmill (Lab)
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It is awfully important in these kinds of cases that we are very clear and precise in our language. There is a difference between minimum and mandatory. I think what the Minister is actually saying is that this is a mandatory sentence unless there is an exception.

Lord Wolfson of Tredegar Portrait Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is not a mandatory sentence, because you can impose more. Let us be clear: it is a minimum sentence, which has to be imposed unless the exceptions are met. To take it outside this clause, if you have a minimum sentence of two years unless there is an exception, the first question is: is the exception met? If it is not, you have to give at least two years. You do not have to give two years; you could give two and a half years. I am not sure I am saying anything different. Reference has been made to America. In other jurisdictions, when they say mandatory, it can be mandatory without exceptional circumstances or any other provision. I am not sure we are saying anything different. I think we are all clear about what we mean. I would prefer to use the phrase “a minimum sentence”, which is the phrase used in the Bill, unless the exception applies.