Copyright and Performances (Application to Other Countries) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2024

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Markham

Wednesday 12th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I too welcome the Minister back. As the House will know, there is a long tradition in the creative industries that, before someone has a performance, you wish them the best by saying, “Break a leg”. I feel that that might not be opportune in this case, but I am very pleased to have the Minister back. I will keep my contribution brief, because the points have been well made.

As a former director of ITV and director of a TV production company—none other than that of the noble Lord, Lord Alli, funnily enough—I understand the importance of the creative industry. Of course, it is a massive industry in the UK, contributing some $124 billion a year. I know from personal experience that fundamental to a successful creative industry is a copyright regime that has the confidence of the people, that is seen as fair, that is trusted and that is transparent. I see this almost like four legs of a chair, and the problem is that, if you wobble any of those legs, you undermine all of it.

This is a complex area—I think we all appreciate that—and I appreciate that option 0A came out of an earlier consultation, with people and the civil servants being creative in order to come up with a solution. But my concern is that, by not consulting on option 0A in such a complex area, we can get into unintended consequences. It is only when you really talk to the people at the sharp end that you understand what the true industry impact might be. As the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, rightly said, with this having a detrimental impact particularly on US rights owners, we are all aware of the unintended consequences it could have in what is, given all the sanctions, a very volatile situation. So we need to tread very carefully and, given that, it seems eminently sensible for us to consult the industry.

I appreciate that at this stage, regret Motions are normally seen as a bit of a slap on the wrist—I say that as a Minister myself not that long ago—but I ask the Minister to go back to the department and seriously explore whether we can do anything to take on board the view of the experts in this space. Their input is vital, and I hope that we can find a way through this.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their warm welcome back. I am sorry that I missed some important debates while I was away, but I assure noble Lords that I watched them vigorously on television—it was absolutely riveting. I am pleased to be back and to hear that noble Lords had a constructive meeting with my colleague Minister Clark on these issues. I too welcome this debate and the opportunity it provides to reassure noble Lords, I hope, about the process that led to the order and the policy it implements. As the noble Lord, Lord Markham, rightly said, this is a complex area, but one in which we have sought to find a fair solution. That has always been the overriding aim of this consultation and of others in the past.

Noble Lords have referred to the background of the consultation process that preceded this legislation, but it is important that I set it out clearly on record. UK copyright law gives performers such as musicians and copyright owners such as record labels the rights to be paid equitable remuneration when their sound recordings are broadcast or played in public. These public performance rights are an important source of revenue for the UK recorded music sector. According to data from the BPI, the UK trade body for record labels, UK recorded music revenue from these sources was £154.5 million in 2023, which equates to more than 10% of total revenues for the recorded music sector.

However, as noble Lords have said, not every country provides equivalent protections for this copyright law. In some countries, performers and record labels—including British performers and British record labels—are not paid when their music is broadcast on the radio or played in public. Whether UK law should provide public performance rights to performers and producers from such countries was the focus of the public consultation run by the Intellectual Property Office in early 2024. A range of evidence and views were submitted in response to that consultation by creators, collective licensing societies, record labels, broadcasters and academics. I stress that the Government carefully considered the views and evidence submitted to the consultation before deciding on a way forward, and that we received a range of views.

The approach implemented by this order largely preserves the effect of the former law—option 0 in the consultation—except for some limited changes. This means that more foreign performers qualify for the right than previously—a change that was made to allow the UK to fulfil its international commitments. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked whether we were in effect maintaining the status quo. This SI largely preserves the effect of the law as it formerly applied at the point that the SI took effect. The SI took effect simultaneously with the changes in the CPTPP Act. The consultation also explicitly noted that the effects of that Act may be modified by this SI.

To come back to the main point, under the law as amended by this order, some foreign performers enjoy these public performance rights only where and to the extent that British performers enjoy equivalent protection under the other country’s law. The Government adopted this approach in light of the evidence submitted at consultation, which indicated that the other options under consideration would have meant substantial costs and disruption to the UK’s creative industries. I am not sure that noble Lords gave enough credence to that argument. For example, granting rights to all foreign performers, regardless of whether the other country provides reciprocal protection to British performers, would mean additional costs to the UK recorded music sector—estimated at £5.9 million per year—with no benefit to UK creators, copyright owners or the public. This could undermine continued investment in new British artists and their music.

I have listened to what people say and I appreciate that some consider it unfair to provide different treatment to performers based on their nationality. However, as I have said, this is a reflection of the treatment accorded to British performers by other countries. If they were to change their law and provide equivalent protection to British performers, then performers from these countries would automatically enjoy these rights under UK law. The Government would be pleased to see all other countries adopt similarly high standards of protection to the UK in this area, to the mutual benefit of performers from the UK and other countries. We continue to pursue that objective where and when we can. I assure noble Lords that these measures were not targeted at the US or any other country in particular. The SI implements the general principles that deliver the best outcome for the UK’s creative industries. I hope we can agree that that ought to be a priority.

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I hope they are in some ways reassured about the Government’s process in making this order, which we believe delivers the best outcome for the UK’s creative industries. I hope noble Lords will reflect on it and that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will be content to withdraw his Motion.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I support that. I completely agree with all the points that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, made on the previous groupings, but the one that we all agree is absolutely vital is the one just brought up by my noble friend. Coming from the private sector, I am all in favour of a market—I think that it is the right way to go—but standards within that are equally vital.

I come at this issue having had the misfortune of having to manage the cyberattack that we all recall happening against our diagnostic services in hospitals last summer. We found that the weakest link there was through the private sector supplier to that system, and it became clear that the health service—or cybersecurity, or whoever it was—had not done enough to make sure that those standards were set, published and adhered to effectively.

With that in mind, and trying to learn the lessons from it, I think that this clause is vital in terms of its intent, but it will be valuable only if it is updated on a frequent basis. In terms of everything that we have spoken about today, and on this issue in particular, I feel that that point is probably the most important. Although everything that we are trying to do is a massive advance in terms of trying to get the data economy to work even better, I cannot emphasise enough how worrying that attack on our hospitals last summer was at the time.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank both noble Lords for raising this; I absolutely concur with them on how important it is. In fact, I remember going to see the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, when he was in his other role, to talk about exactly this issue: whether the digital verification services were going to be robust enough against cyberattacks.

I pray in aid the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, who both felt that the new Cyber Security and Resilience Bill will provide some underpinning for all of this, because our Government take this issue very seriously. As the Committee can imagine, we get regular advice from the security services about what is going on and what we need to do to head it off. Yes, it is a difficult issue, but we are doing everything we can to make sure that our data is safe; that is fundamental.

Amendment 47 would require the Secretary of State to prepare and publish rules on cybersecurity for providers to follow. The existing trust framework includes rules on cybersecurity, against which organisations will be certified. Specifically, providers will be able to prove either that they meet the internationally recognised information security standards or that they have a security management system that matches the criteria set out in the trust framework.

I assure noble Lords that the Information Commissioner’s Office, the National Cyber Security Centre and other privacy stakeholders have contributed to the development of the trust framework. This includes meeting international best practice around encryption and cryptology techniques. I will happily write to noble Lords to reassure them further by detailing the range of protections already in place. Alternatively, if noble Lords here today would benefit from an official technical briefing on the trust framework, we would be delighted to set up such a meeting because it is important that we all feel content that this will be a robust system, for exactly the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Markham, explained. We are absolutely on your Lordships’ side and on the case on all this; if it would be helpful to have a meeting, we will certainly do that.

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am not going to say much except to try to persuade my noble friend. I am absolutely with the intent of what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, is trying to do here and I understand the massive benefits that can be gained from it.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Viscount for joining me in my enthusiasm for NUAR. He is right: having seen it in practice, I am a great enthusiast for it. If it is possible to demonstrate it to other people, I would be very happy to do so, because it is quite a compelling story when you see it in practice.

Amendment 56, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, would place a duty on the Secretary of State to consult relevant private sector organisations before implementing the NUAR provisions under the Bill. I want to make clear then that the Geospatial Commission, which oversees NUAR, has been engaging with stakeholders on NUAR since 2018. Since then, there have been extensive reviews of existing processes and data exchange services. That includes a call for evidence, a pilot project, public consultation and numerous workshops. A series of in-person focus groups were completed last week and officials have visited commercial companies with specific concerns, including LinesearchbeforeUdig, so there has been extensive consultation with them.

I suppose one can understand why they feel slightly put out about NUAR appearing on the scene, but NUAR is a huge public asset that we should celebrate. We can potentially use it in other ways for other services in the future, once it is established, and we should celebrate the fact that we have managed to create it as a public asset. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that a further consultation on that basis would provide no additional benefit but would delay the realisation of the significant benefits that NUAR could deliver.

Moving on to the noble Lord’s other amendments, Amendments 193, 194, and 195, he is absolutely right about the need for data interoperability in the health service. We can all think of examples of where that would be of benefit to patients and citizens. It is also true that we absolutely need to ensure that our health and care system is supported by robust information standards. Again, we go back to the issue of trust: people need to know that those protections are there.

This is why we would ensure, through Clause 119 and Schedule 15, that suppliers of IT products and services used in the provision of health or adult social care in England are required to meet relevant information standards. In doing so, we can ensure that IT suppliers are held to account where information standards are not implemented. The application of information standards is independent of commercial organisations, and we would hold IT companies to them. Furthermore, the definition of healthcare as set out in the Health and Social Care Act 2012, as amended by the Health and Care Act 2022, already ensures that all forms of healthcare are within scope of information standards, which would include primary care. That was one of the other points that the noble Lord made.

As an add-on to this whole discussion, the noble Lord will know that the Government are preparing the idea of a national data library, which would encourage further interoperability between government departments to make sure that we use it to improve services. Health and social care is the obvious one, but the members of the Committee can all think of all sorts of other ways where government departments, if they collaborated on an interoperable basis, could drive up standards and make life easier for a whole lot of citizens in different ways. We are on the case and are absolutely determined to deliver it. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Generative AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Markham

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

That is exactly what we are trying to achieve. Creatives need to be properly respected and rewarded for their activities. We need to make sure that when scraping and web-crawling takes place, there is transparency about that and the originators of the material are properly recognised and rewarded.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister knows, AI model training and associated copyright infringement can occur anywhere in the world, effectively offshoring copyright infringement. So while we welcome the Minister for AI’s statement that the Government will end uncertainty around the use of copyright content for AI, I am afraid I have another tricky question to add. How do we intend to do that in the space of protecting UK content from international offshoring?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is quite right: not only is our material used internationally, but UK-based AI sites are using internationally created material. So this is an international problem—we cannot resolve it just within the UK. We are working closely with international partners, and it is a shared priority for Governments across the world. The Intellectual Property Office is engaging with international partners and other offices, including the World Intellectual Property Organization, to try to advance discussions on this issue. As the noble Lord said, it is an important international issue. We cannot resolve it on our own.