Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I turn to Amendments 156A and 156B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. I understand the strength of feeling and the need to provide legal protections for legitimate cybersecurity activities. I agree with the noble Lord that the UK should have the right legislative framework to allow us to tackle the harms posed by cybercriminals. We have heard examples of some of those threats this afternoon.

I reassure the noble Lord that this Government are committed to ensuring that the Computer Misuse Act remains up to date and effective in tackling criminality. We will continue to work with the cybersecurity industry, the National Cyber Security Centre and law enforcement agencies to consider whether there are workable proposals on this. The noble Lord will know that this is a complex and ongoing issue being considered as part of the review of the Computer Misuse Act being carried out by the Home Office. We are considering improved defences by engaging extensively with the cybersecurity industry, law enforcement agencies, prosecutors and system owners. However, engagement to date has not produced a consensus on the issue, even within the industry, and that is holding us back at this moment—but we are absolutely determined to move forward with this and to reach a consensus on the way forward.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said in the previous debate that the amendments were premature, and here that is certainly the case. The specific amendments that the noble Lord has tabled are premature, because we need a stronger consensus on the way forward, notwithstanding all the good reasons that noble Lords have given for why it is important that we have updated legislation. With these concerns and reasons in mind, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

Could the Minister say a few words on some of those points of discourse and non-consensus, to give the Committee some flavour of the type of issues where there is no consensus as well as the extent of the gap between some of those perspectives?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for tabling Amendment 221B and his other amendments in this group, which are on a range of varied and important issues. Given the hour, I hope he will be content if I promise to write to him on each of these issues and in the meantime, I ask him to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who participated: I will not go through them by name. I thank the Minister for her response and would very much welcome a letter. I am happy to meet her on all these subjects but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the crux of this machinery is solely automated decision-making as a binary thing—it is or it is not—and, therefore, that the absolute key to it is making sure that the humans involved are suitably qualified and finding some way to do so, whether by writing a definition or publishing guidelines?

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

On the question of qualification, the Minister may wish to reflect on the broad discussions we have had in the past around certification and the role it may play. I gently her take her back to what she said on Amendment 123A about notification. Does she see notification as the same as a personalised response to an individual?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Noble Lords have asked several questions. First, in response to the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, I think I am on the same page as him about binary rather than muddying the water by having degrees of meaningful intervention. The ICO already has guidance on how human review should be provided, and this will be updated after the Bill to ensure that it reflects what is meant by “meaningful human involvement”. Those issues will be addressed in the ICO guidance, but if it helps, I can write further on that.

I have forgotten the question that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, asked me. I do not know whether I have addressed it.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

In her response the Minister said “notification”. Does she see notification as the same as “personalised response”?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My understanding is that it would be. Every individual who was affected would receive their own notification rather than it just being on a website, for example.

Let me just make sure I have not missed anyone out. On Amendment 123B on addressing bias in automated decision-making, compliance with the data protection principles, including accuracy, transparency and fairness, will ensure that organisations take the necessary measures to address the risk of bias.

On Amendment 123C from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I reassure him that the Government strongly agree that employment rights should be fit for a modern economy. The plan to make work pay will achieve this by addressing the challenges introduced by new trends and technologies. I agree very much with my noble friend Lord Knight that although we have to get this right, there are opportunities for a different form of work, and we should not just see this as being potentially a negative impact on people’s lives. However, we want to get the balance right with regard to the impact on individuals to make sure that we get the best rather than the possible negative effects out of it.

Employment rights law is more suitable for regulating the specific use of data and technology in the workplace rather than data protection law in isolation, as data protection law sets out general rules and principles for processing that apply in all contexts. Noble Lords can rest assured that we take the impact on employment and work very seriously, and as part of our plan to make work pay and the Employment Rights Bill, we will return to these issues.

On Amendments 119, 120, 121 and 122, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and my noble friend Lord Knight, the Government share the noble Lords’ belief in the importance of public sector algorithmic transparency, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, reminded us, we had a very good debate on this last week. The algorithmic transparency recording standard is already mandatory for government departments and arm’s-length bodies. This is a cross-government policy mandate underpinned by digital spend controls, which means that when budget is requested for a relevant tool, the team in question must commit to publishing an ATRS record before receiving the funds.

As I said on Friday, we are implementing this policy accordingly, and I hope to publish further records imminently. I very much hope that when noble Lords see what I hope will be a significant number of new records on this, they will be reassured that the nature of the mandation and the obligation on public sector departments is working.

Policy routes also enable us to provide detailed guidance to the public sector on how to carry out its responsibilities and monitor compliance. Examples include the data ethics framework, the generative AI framework, and the guidelines for AI procurement. Additionally, the data protection framework already achieves some of the intended outcomes of these amendments. It requires organisations, including public authorities, to demonstrate how they have identified and mitigated risks when processing personal data. The ICO provides guidance on how organisations can audit their privacy management and ensure a high level of data protection compliance.

I know I have given a great deal of detail there. If I have not covered all the points that the noble Lords have raised, I will write. In the meantime, given the above assurances, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Future of the Post Office

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point and I hope that that can be included in the Green Paper as one aspect of this. I reiterate that we see a future for community hubs. It may be that we need fixed premises for that to work in practice, rather than for it to be something that just visits. For more isolated communities, that may well be a solution. Whatever happens, we want to guarantee to all communities in the UK that they will be able to access a post office to do the business that they need to do in order to access public services, driving licences and all the things we were talking about earlier. They will need to have some form of post office within easy reach. That is certainly one way of looking at it.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my financial services and technology interests, as set out in the register. Would the Minister agree that the country is suffering from an epidemic of financial exclusion and digital exclusion, with the two often walking painfully hand in hand? Would not the golden principles of financial inclusion and digital inclusion be two excellent elements on which to fund the Post Office going forward?

Would she also agree that a significant part of the difficulties experienced by sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses was that computer evidence was taken almost on the nod? Would she agree that it is high time we reversed the burden of proof with computer evidence to what it was pre changing it to this iniquitous position?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I think we have all learned the lesson from the Horizon scandal that you cannot assume that the computer is always right. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that we need to be much more sceptical when presented with that kind of evidence in future.

On digital exclusion, the noble Lord is absolutely right. It is a huge issue for the Government and we are taking it very seriously. A huge piece of work is going on around this. Obviously, our ambition is to make sure that everybody has the skills and capacity to go online and access services, because it is to their benefit; it makes their life easier. The proposals we have—for example, the Government’s One Login service, will always have the option for individuals to go in person to a post office to access those services as an alternative. We will make sure that people are not excluded. But the real challenge relates to the discussion we were having earlier with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about education and skills; it is our intention to make sure that people have the skills, education, capacity and equipment to go online and have all the advantages that the digital world will offer them.

Generative AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Monday 11th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are clear that copyright law must be respected when content is used to train AI models. If copies are made of protected work, licences must be required from the copyright owner unless a specific copyright exception applies. The problem is that the law does not yet apply equally to generative AI models, and that is the issue we are grappling with. Our view is that this should not necessarily be left to the law; unfortunately, it takes a long time for these legal cases to be resolved. We are trying to find a way forward that will be fair to everybody but that does not require the long legislative process that I know the noble Earl is all too aware of.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register. Does the Minister agree that this is not just a question of fairness? We must have a respected, remunerated, consented, dynamic licensing market for IP and copyrighted works for both the benefit of IP and creatives and for a flourishing AI market in the UK.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is quite right: we have to find a way forward that reflects the importance of both these sectors to our economy. The creative industries are one of the UK’s most powerful economic activities, worth £124 billion in GVA at the moment, so they are hugely important. We know that we have to respect the creative sector and the journalists working in it, but equally, we know that the future will be about an enhanced AI system. More and more businesses in the UK are now using AI, so that is the way forward and we have to find a way through this, but there is not a simple answer. I assure noble Lords that my colleagues, particularly Chris Bryant and Feryal Clark, are very aware of this issue. It has to be resolved but we would just ask for a little bit more space to allow us to make some progress.

AI Technology Regulations

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Tuesday 30th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that question and for all the work he has done on the AI issue, including his new book, which I am sure is essential reading over the summer for everybody. I should say that several noble Lords in this Chamber have written books on AI, so noble Lords might want to consider that for their holiday reading.

The noble Lord will know that the use and regulation of live facial recognition is for each country to decide. We already have some regulations about it, but it is already governed by data protection, equality and human rights legislation, supplemented by specific police guidance. It is absolutely vital that its use is only when it is necessary, proportionate and fair. We will continue to look at the legislation and at whether privacy is being sufficiently protected. That is an issue that will come forward when the future legislation is being prepared.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, would the Minister agree that the way to regulate AI is principles-based, outcomes-focused and input-understood, and always, where appropriate, remunerated? To that end, what is the Government’s plan to support our creative industries—the musicians, writers and artists who make such a contribution to our economy, society and well-being, and whose IP and copyright are currently being swallowed up by gen AI, with no respect, no consent and no remuneration? Surely it is time to legislate.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises a really important point here and again I acknowledge his expertise on this issue. It is a complex and challenging area and we understand the importance of it. I can assure the noble Lord that it remains a priority for this Government and that we are determined to make meaningful progress in this area. We believe in both human-centred creativity and the potential of AI to open new creative frontiers. Finding the right balance between innovation and protection for those creators and for the ongoing viability of the creative industries will require thoughtful engagement and consultation. That is one of the things we will do when we consult on the new legislation.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Holmes of Richmond

Committee stage
Monday 5th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I rise briefly to speak to Amendment 140 in my name to add some more fuel to this already well-stoked fire and to set out exactly what we mean in the Bill when we talk about good faith and indeed the lack thereof where a trader does not take into account the interests of the consumer in terms of product design or information about the product or seeks to exploit the consumer because of their biases or particular views to induce a purchase or a desire for a particular product. Amendment 140 merely adds to the excellent amendment, as already set out. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I am pleased to have added my name to Amendment 137 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, which deals with the issue of submitting or creating fake reviews by adding it to the list in Schedule 19 of commercial practices which would always be considered unfair. This is the issue that we touched on in the earlier debate. I am pleased that we have the chance to raise this today because it has been an issue of concern for some time. It is good to get the chance to debate and pursue this, and it is good to hear that the Government are also keen to do that.

We argue that this is not just about the effect fake reviews have on consumers; they affect businesses as well. They damage the livelihoods of many small traders—restaurants and hotels, for example—when their business is deliberately targeted by damaging reviews, or the local competition down the road receives glowing fake reviews which take trade away from the legitimate trader, so this has a business element as well as a consumer element. At the same time, Which? reports that the proliferation of fake reviews for online product sales results in consumers being more than twice as likely to choose poor quality products. We heard a little bit about how that works in the earlier debate.

Urgent action is undoubtedly needed to bring quality standards back into online sales and marketing so that people are not duped. As we have heard, since the amendment was tabled, the Government have produced their response to the consultation on improving price transparency and product information for consumers. It proposes that the Government will add fake reviews to the list of banned practices in Schedule 19. I am grateful to the Minister for hosting a meeting last week where we had a chance to discuss this. It is good to hear that the Government have finally decided to act on it.

However, there are still some outstanding concerns. Concerns have been raised by Trustpilot and others that the fact that the proposed wording lacks clarity. The Government saying that they will work with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to clarify the wording is a sign that they have not yet got this quite right. Can the Minister clarify the timescale for that additional work? When will we see the outcome of it?

Concern has also been raised that the Government’s proposals do not address the role played by internet service providers and social media in promoting fake reviews. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, raised this issue. What action will we take against those who host and reproduce these fake reviews, often knowingly?

Concern has been expressed that the penalty for promoting fake reviews is subject only to civil, not criminal, enforcement. Can the Minister explain a bit more about why that decision was taken? In the meantime, we argue that our Amendment 137 addresses those concerns. We look forward to further talks along the lines that the Minister has proposed, and we hope that he will agree to work with us and the Committee to produce a government amendment that is both clear and comprehensive.

The noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Holmes, helpfully sought greater clarity on consumer rights to prevent consumers being misled or manipulated. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, rightly mentioned the additional measures needed to protect us from rogue traders. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for asking a series of small but important questions around his almost probing amendments. It is important to have clarification on the record, and I hope that the Minister will be able to give it.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, helpfully raised the issue of good faith and asked how we can bring some standards back into trading and the exchange of information. Again, I hope that the Minister will be able to clarify that.

We have had a positive discussion on these important points. It is good to hear that there will be further discussion. In the meantime, I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.