Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Kidron

2nd reading
Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

With respect, it is the narrow question that a number of us have raised. Training the new AI systems is entirely dependent on them being fed vast amounts of material which they can absorb, process and reshape in order to answer questions that are asked of them. That information is to all intents and purposes somebody else’s property. What will happen to resolve the barrier? At the moment, they are not paying for it but just taking it—scraping it.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

Perhaps I may come in too. Specifically, how does the data protection framework change it? We have had the ICO suggesting that the current framework works perfectly well and that it is the responsibility of the scrapers to let the IP holders know, while the IP holders have not a clue that it is being scraped. It is already scraped and there is no mechanism. I think we are a little confused about what the plan is.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I can certainly write to noble Lords setting out more details on this. I said in response to an Oral Question a few days ago that my honourable friend Minister Clark in DSIT and Chris Bryant, whom the noble Lord, Lord Russell, mentioned, are working jointly on this. They are looking at a proposal that can come forward on intellectual property in more detail. I hope that I can write to noble Lords and set out more detail on that.

On the question of the Horizon scandal and the validity of computers, raised, quite rightly, by the noble Lords, Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Holmes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, I think we all understand that the Horizon scandal was a terrible miscarriage of justice, and the convictions of postmasters who were wrongly convicted have been rightly overturned. Those Post Office prosecutions relied on assertions that the Horizon system was accurate and reliable, which the Post Office knew to be wrong. This was supported by expert evidence, which it knew to be misleading. The issue was not, therefore, purely about the reliability of the computer-generated evidence. Almost all criminal cases rely to some extent on computer evidence, so the implications of amending the law in this area are far- reaching, a point made by several noble Lords. The Government are aware that this is an issue, are considering this matter very carefully and will announce next steps in due course.

Many noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Vaux and Lord Holmes of Richmond, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, raised automated decision-making. I noted in my opening speech how the restored accountability framework gives us greater confidence in ADM, so I will not go over that again in detail. But to explain the Bill’s drafting, I want to reassure and clarify for noble Lords that the Bill means that the organisation must first inform individuals if a legal or significant decision has been taken in relation to them based solely on automated processing, and then they must give individuals the opportunity to challenge such decisions, obtain human intervention for them and make representations about them to the controller.

The regulation-making powers will future-proof the ADM reforms in the Bill, ensuring that the Government will have the powers to bring greater legal certainty, where necessary and proportionate, in the light of constantly evolving technology. I reiterate that there will be the right to human intervention, and it will be on a personal basis.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lords, Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Clement-Jones, raised concerns about edtech. The Government recognise that concerns have been raised about the amount of personal data collected by education technology used in schools, and whether this is fully transparent to children and parents. The Department for Education is committed to improving guidance and support for schools to help them better navigate this market. For example, its Get Help with Data Protection in Schools project has been established to help schools develop guidance and tools to help them both understand and comply with data protection legislation. Separately, the ICO has carried out a series of audits on edtech service providers, assessing privacy risks and potential non-compliance with data protection regulations in the development, deployment and use of edtech solutions in schools.

The creation of child sexual abuse material, CSAM, through all mediums including AI—offline or online—is and continues to be illegal. This is a forefront priority for this Government and we are considering all levers that can be utilised to fight child sexual abuse. Responsibility for the law in this area rests with the Home Office; I know it is actively and sympathetically looking at this matter and I understand that my colleague the Safeguarding Minister will be in touch with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, ahead of Committee.

I can see that I am running out of time so, rather than testing noble Lords’ patience, will draw my comments to a close. I have not picked up all the comments that colleagues made, but I thank everybody for their excellent contributions. This is the beginning of a much longer conversation, which I am very much looking forward to, as I am to hearing all those who promised to participate in Committee. I am sure we will have a rich and interesting discussion then.

I hope I have persuaded some noble Lords that the Bill is not only wide ranging but has a clear and simple focus, which is about growing the economy, creating a modern, digital government and, most importantly, improving people’s lives, which will be underpinned by robust personal data protection. I will not say any more at this stage. We will follow up but, in the meantime, I beg to move.

Online Safety Legislation: Abuse on Social Media

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Kidron

Thursday 5th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, Ofcom has a very wide-ranging and serious set of responsibilities. There is no suggestion that it is not carrying out its responsibilities in the run-up to the implementation of the Online Safety Act. We are working very closely with Ofcom and believe that it will carry out those additional functions that we have given it with proper scrutiny and to high standards. Yes, there is a case for looking at all regulators; we have a debate on this on Monday in the House, and I am looking forward to that, but that is a wider issue. For the moment, we have to give Ofcom all the support that we can in implementing a very difficult set of regulations.

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, the crafting of the Online Safety Act was fraught with exceptions, exclusions and loopholes, the most egregious of which is that regulated companies get safe harbour if they comply with Ofcom’s codes, but Ofcom has provided us with codes that have huge gaps in known harms. What plans do the Government have to fulfil their election promise to strengthen the OSA by ensuring that it protects all children effectively, even the very young, and that it has adequate mechanisms to act swiftly in a crisis, or with an evolving new risk, to stop abuse being whipped up algorithmically and directed at minority groups?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I think that we are in danger of downplaying the significance of the Online Safety Act. It is a trail-blazing Act; the noble Baroness was very much involved in it. Our priority has to be to get that Act implemented. Under it, all user-to-user services and search providers, regardless of size, will have to take swift and effective action against illegal content, including criminal online abuse and posts of a sexual nature. We should get behind Ofcom and the Online Safety Act, and we will then obviously have to keep that Act under review, but we have the tools to do that.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Kidron

Committee stage
Monday 22nd January 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

My Lords, I am sorry to break the Conservative bus pattern but I, too, will speak to Amendments 26 and 27, to which I have added my name, and to Amendment 30. Before I do, I was very taken by the amendments spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and I support them. I feel somewhat sheepish that I had not seen the relationship between data and the Bill, having spent most of the past few months with my head in the data Bill. That connection is hugely important, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord for making such a clear case. In supporting Amendments 26 and 27, I recognise the value of Amendment 25, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, and put on record my support for the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on Amendment 24. So much has been said that we have managed to change the name of the leveraging principle to the whack-a-mole principle and everything that has been said has been said very well.

The only point I want to make on these two amendments, apart from to echo the profound importance that other noble Lords have already spoken of, is that the ingenuity of the sector has always struck me as being equally divided between its incredible creativity in creating new products and things for us to do and services that it can provide, and an equal ingenuity in avoiding regulation of all kinds in all parts of the world. Without having not only the designated activity but the activities the sector controls that are adjacent to the activity, we do not have the core purpose of the Bill. At one point I thought it might help the Minister to see that the argument he made in relation to Clause 6(2) and (3), which was in defence of some flexibility for the Secretary of State, might equally be made on behalf of the regulator in this case.

Turning briefly to Amendment 30 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I first have to make a slightly unusual declaration in that my husband was one of the Hollywood writers who went on strike and won a historic settlement to be a human being in charge of their AI rather than at the behest of the AI. Not only in the creative industries but in academia, I have seen first-hand the impact of scraping information. Not only is the life’s work of an academic taken without permission, but then regurgitating it as an inaccurate mere guess undermines the very purpose of academic distinctions. There is clearly a copyright issue that requires an ability both to opt out and correct, and to share in the upside, as the noble Lord pointed out.

I suggest that the LLMs and general AI firms have taken the axiom “it’s better to ask forgiveness than permission” to unbelievable new heights. Our role during the passage of this Bill may be to turn that around and say that it is better to ask permission than forgiveness.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we have had a wonderfully eclectic debate. I am sorry if we gave some of the amendments more attention than others, because we have a number of very important issues here. Even in my response I may not be giving some colleagues due deference for their hard work and the good arguments they have put forward.

As noble Lords have commented, Amendments 26, 27 and 34 are in my name. As we have discussed, Amendments 26 and 27 would ensure that the CMA can tackle anti-competitive conduct in non-designated activity, provided that this conduct is related to designated activity. This would ensure, for example, that a designated company facing conduct requirements could not simply shift the resources of its business into another similar business venture, which would have a similar outcome of anti-competitive behaviour.

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, for her support. The example she gave of Apple resonates with all of us and has obviously been in the news. It was one of the behaviours I described as rather vindictive in the last debate. I am not sure how much extra money Apple is going to make from it, but it is a question of rubbing someone’s nose in it because you do not like the decision that has been made. I feel that we need to address this issue.

The noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, in his Amendment 25, made a very similar point about the leveraging principle. We have all signed up to “the whack-a-mole principle”; I think we will call it that from now on. As the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, made clear, this is about addressing the leveraging of SMS markets to enter adjoining markets. She gave the example of travel price comparison. I feel that is a lazy innovation; if you get so big, you stop innovating—you copy the competing firms and taking their best ideas without innovating any more. It is in all our interests to get a grip on this, so that these companies that have great resources and great capacity for innovation innovate in a creative way rather than just copying other people’s ideas.

Amendment 34, which is also in our names, would enable the CMA to keep conduct requirements under review and take account of whether those requirements are having their intended effects or if further steps of pro-competition intervention is necessary. It would provide a clearer link between the measures available to the CMA. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and others have said, it underpins the importance of interoperability in CMA decisions. We believe that the amendments help to clarify and reinforce the powers available to the CMA.

I listened carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, who, as ever, provided enormous insight into the tech world and the consequences of the legislation. We share his objective of getting the powers of the CMA in the right balance. His amendment challenges the Government to explain why the CMA can only impose a conduct requirement to achieve the fair dealing, open choice or trust and transparency objectives—which seems to be overly restrictive and open to legal challenge. We look forward to hearing the Minister’s explanation of why those restrictions were felt necessary. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, also raised an important point in his Amendment 24, which we have not given sufficient weight to, about the need for those conduct requirements to deliver proper accessibility in line with previous legislation. We absolutely support him in that quest.

The amendments from the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Lansley, raise important points about transparency and improved data. They stress the importance of portability and interoperability and put data firmly into the conduct requirements. We support those arguments and look forward to the Minister’s response to what we feel are common-sense proposals.