Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part one & Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for introducing this important debate. As we have heard in this debate, illegal hare coursing is becoming an increasing problem in rural areas, particularly in flatter, arable areas, where the land is open and easier to access.

I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, who I thought very well illustrated that farmers increasingly feel isolated when having to deal with these problems. They feel that they are fighting this alone —and that point was equally well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. It is true that, all too often, police forces—including rural police forces—have given priority to more traditional crimes, such as burglary, rather than recognising that these are serious crimes that need to be addressed.

Noble Lords have rightly highlighted the implications of hare coursing. Hare coursers and poachers regularly cause criminal damage to gates, hedgerows, fences and growing crops. This comes at a huge cost to farmers and landowners, wasting man hours as they are forced to look for and repair damage—and then they have to foot often very expensive bills for repairs to this damage and the need to increase security infrastructure, often involving installing CCTV cameras. This is extremely time-consuming, frustrating and upsetting for many farmers, whose land is the single most important asset of their business and their livelihoods.

As we have heard, it is not just about the damage that illegal coursers cause to land and property; verbal abuse, threats, intimidation and violence are all faced by landowners and tenants. The Crown Prosecution Service website admits that:

“Hare coursing can cause significant disturbance in the countryside and is a cause of serious concern to those who live in rural communities”.


There is a common fallacy that hare coursing is just a bit of poaching, but increasingly we know that it is closely connected to organised criminals and involves enormous sums of money changing hands, through high-stakes illegal betting. Coursing is often filmed from a vehicle and live-streamed across the internet. I remember talking to a rural police officer a couple of years ago who had been involved in some raids on hare coursing. He said that the minimum bet is £50 and people are betting in multiples of £50, so it is not just small sums of money changing hands here. There is obviously also the implication that there is money-laundering taking place. Those taking part in illegal hare coursing are often guilty of other crimes as well, such as road traffic offences, including the driving of unlicensed and uninsured vehicles, drug taking and the possession of firearms. Many of these criminals are also involved in major rural crime, such as theft to order and, on occasions, modern slavery.

The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, rightly pointed out that hares are a species we need to treasure because they are increasingly scarce, and coursing obviously impacts negatively on the brown hare population. The Country Land and Business Association estimates that tens of thousands of hares are slaughtered each year and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said, illegal hare coursing does not respect the breeding season, when vulnerable young are still dependent.

The key ingredient of poaching offences is trespass. The older game laws are still the preferred route for prosecuting illegal hare coursing, and legal guidance from the Crown Prosecution Service says that the more effective tools for prosecuting are either the Game Act 1831 or the Night Poaching Act 1828. Is it not about time that we had up-to-date, effective laws, where penalties will act as a proper deterrent? Although the powers of the police and courts have been strengthened by more recent legislation, particularly the Game Laws (Amendment) Act 1960, the older legislation needs to be strengthened in terms of seizure and forfeiture powers, specifically in relation to dogs and vehicles.

Police forces are working together to deal with hare-coursing offences. They have found that the dogs are the coursers’ key asset and that the ability to seize dogs is proving an important deterrent. Unfortunately, this means that police forces must fund kennelling costs and cannot reclaim the costs from offenders via the courts. Given the high value of the dogs to those involved in illegal coursing, this is a substantial weakness in the existing law. The police have asked for years to be given this power. Does the Minister agree that, for rural communities and farmers in particular, hare coursing is not simply a nuisance but a serious blight on the livelihoods and well-being of those affected? Does he agree that the current overall framework governing policing and sentencing does not act as a sufficient deterrent?

We support these amendments, which, together with a joined-up approach across the criminal justice system, can begin to address the devastating impact that illegal hare coursing has on farming communities, the wider rural community and wildlife across England. I therefore hope that Ministers will give these matters serious consideration and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their participation in this debate. I have considerable sympathy with the right reverend Prelate’s wish to see greater powers available to the police and the courts in dealing with hare coursing. I have to declare an interest here as I am a member of the BASC, which is a member of the hare coursing coalition.

This vile activity has no place in our countryside. It involves cruelty to the brown hare and, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, I thought that my noble friend Lord Caithness made very important points on biodiversity and populations. It causes real harm to rural communities, with all the associated menacing and criminal practices so eloquently described by the right reverend Prelate, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and others. As we have already made clear, including when this issue was debated in the Commons, this Government are determined to take action. Our action plan for animal welfare sets out our commitment to crack down on illegal hare coursing-related activity, providing law enforcement with more tools to address this issue effectively, including through legislation when parliamentary time allows.

Officials in both the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Home Office are working through the options in detail. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at Defra, Rebecca Pow, is responsible for leading on this topic. She has begun detailed discussions of a range of possible measures, including in areas covered in these amendments. These were discussed at a round table she chaired in June. It is important to consider all the options carefully to ensure that the proposals that we bring forward will be effective in achieving the intended aims.

This work will, unfortunately and necessarily, take a little time, but we need to get it right, so I cannot offer the right reverend Prelate any encouragement that the Bill is the right one through which to take the matter forward. However, I assure him that the measures that he put forward in these amendments will be considered most carefully as we develop our proposals. This issue is being taken seriously: I reassure him on that point. Unfortunately, however, I cannot give him the timetable he has asked for. I nevertheless hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Assisted Dying Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Friday 18th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to have the opportunity to support this Bill this afternoon, and to add my thanks to my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer for enabling us to debate this important issue. Like others, I have received a huge postbag often with very moving testimonies and I have read them with great detail. I have to say that unlike other noble Lords the majority of letters I received were in favour of the Bill.

However, I felt that the arguments in the letters represented a big shift in thinking away from deference towards professionals such as doctors and politicians, and maybe even the church, and towards a stronger belief that individuals with their families should be able to exercise greater control over their own lives. There is an increasing reluctance to let others decide our fate. But we also have a particular responsibility to give leadership and guidance on this matter, not least because of the Supreme Court’s judgment. That is why this Bill is so welcome and so timely.

Today, we have heard a great deal of supposition and some rather alarming speculation about the motives of friends, families and doctors who would be impacted by the change in the law. But surely those who fear the consequences of such a change in the law can take comfort from the evidence that already exists. A number of noble Lords have referred to the Oregon example. There is a wealth of research that has demonstrated that the law works well there and safely, providing a safe choice to a small number of terminally ill people and a great deal of comfort for many more. Far from people feeling pressurised to die early, the safety net has given many people a renewed commitment to a life safe from fear. The small numbers who do opt for assisted dying clearly demonstrate that doctors are not using the powers inappropriately.

Incidentally, I do not recognise the rather jaundiced description of medical professionals in the UK that some have characterised today. As someone who sat on the GMC Fitness to Practise panels for many years, I know that the profession is not perfect, but an overwhelming number of doctors carry out their responsibilities with incredible care, compassion and diligence, and there is stringent regulation for those who stray. The requirement for two independent doctors to be involved should give us sufficient protection against a very small number of rogue doctors who, incidentally, characteristically act alone. However, I have listened to the debate this afternoon, and I am sure that those protections could be enhanced in Committee.

In addition, for those who fear that the Bill will open the door to assisted dying on a mass basis, in Oregon there have been no attempts to widen the law beyond the initial remit. We should contrast that with the situation in which we now find ourselves in the UK. In 2012, a Commons debate on the DPP’s guidance on prosecution saw MPs unanimously accept the principle that amateurs who compassionately assist a loved one to die should not face automatic prosecution. That is the current position. But I do not believe that it is sustainable to allow amateurs to offer compassionate assistance to die while prohibiting the much safer option of proper medical assistance to deliver the same outcome. Many in the medical profession, for the highest of motives, share that view.

This is why I support the Bill. It will empower the terminally ill to choose the kind of death that they want rather than having to take matters into their own hands or operate with the help of amateurs with no medical support or supervision or, as we have heard, in a foreign country. The Bill represents true compassion towards the terminally ill and I urge noble Lords to support it.

Children and Families Bill

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2013 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

58: Clause 12, page 10, leave out lines 40 to 43 and insert—
“(a) with whom a child is to—(i) live,(ii) spend time, or(iii) otherwise have contact; and(b) when, with any person, a child is to—(i) live,(ii) spend time, or(iii) otherwise have contact.”

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, on a slightly different subject, Amendments 58 and 59 deal with child arrangements orders and their potential impact internationally.

We very much welcome the basic intent of Clause 12 to move away from terminology which implies that there are winners or losers in disputes concerning children, by introducing new child arrangements orders. However, we are concerned that the move away from one parent having custody may create additional difficulty in retrieving children from other jurisdictions internationally. Noble Lords will know that this can already be a legal minefield and a source of considerable distress, which is why we have tabled the amendments.

These amendments aim to make the contents of the new child arrangements orders clearer, and set out more explicitly that the person with whom the child is to live has rights of custody for the purposes of the Hague convention and other international family law treaties. The amendments are similar to those we tabled in the Commons, and emanate from concerns expressed by, among others, the Justice Select Committee, the Family Law Bar Association and the Children’s Commissioner for England.

The key issue here is in relation to rights of custody, which are an important concept in international law, in particular the Hague convention, and apply particularly to child kidnapping. When the Justice Select Committee considered this issue, it said:

“There are also concerns amongst our witnesses that the draft clause could cause confusion and delay in cross-jurisdiction cases … It is important that CAOs do not change how international law relating to children operates. A central concept in the relevant Hague … and EU legislation … is that of ‘rights of custody’”.

It went on to say:

“There is however a risk that the change in terms … may be hard to interpret in other jurisdictions”.

This issue was raised at Second Reading and the Minister subsequently wrote to say:

“For international understanding, it is the content of the order that is important, not its name. A child arrangements order should make clear with whom a child is to live, and this will enable a state to determine whether a person has rights of custody in a child abduction case”.

I am grateful to the Minister for trying to address that point. However, his response misses the point that by changing the name and the terminology we risk inadvertently making difficult international custody battles even more fraught.

While we cannot claim that our amendments are a panacea, and it may well be that the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, are clearer in law, we believe they go some way to providing further legal clarification that will help parents and overseas jurisdictions to understand our intent in the law. Since the Justice Committee and others continue to be concerned, I hope the Minister will feel able to take these amendments away and to reconsider the Government’s opposition to what is meant to be a simple and helpful set of changes.

We also support the amendment proposed by the Government which deals with some of the consequential impacts of child arrangements orders on the Children Act 1989.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I do not believe that I have the right now to withdraw my amendment because it was grouped with the earlier amendment. I make one point: it is not the sophisticated countries that have signed the Hague convention about which I am concerned but the unsophisticated countries, some of which are in South America, the Far East, parts of the Indian subcontinent and the Middle East. Those are countries where it may not be as easy to explain to them what “arrangements” means as it would be to France or Germany.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I have to say I was beginning to feel very disappointed in the Minister’s response until he said that maybe we could meet—and I am very happy to take up his offer—because I felt that he was not really addressing the concerns that have been raised. They are not just the concerns of non-lawyers like myself or my colleagues; they are the concerns of some fairly major players in this sector including, as I said, the Family Law Bar Association and the Children’s Commission for England, while obviously the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is an expert in her own right. This is not a political point but a practical one: it is about what is in the best interests of children and what can best protect them in international custody disputes. As I understand it, “rights of custody” has a particular resonance and respect around the world, and I am not sure that the new phraseology that we are putting in its place does that. I still need to be persuaded of all that, but maybe we can do that in a meeting with the Minister. I will happily take up his offer to explore it further in that context. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 59 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

62: Clause 14, page 13, line 15, after “issued” insert “unless the court considers it necessary in order to safeguard or promote the child’s welfare to permit additional time for the disposing of the application”

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, Amendments 62 and 63 concern the issue of time limits for court proceedings. We very much welcome the Government’s aim of reducing delays in care proceedings as set out in the clause. As we have discussed in the past, there have been unjustifiable delays, which have had serious consequences for the welfare of the children involved. We are pleased that, in anticipation of the new timescales, court proceedings are already being completed over a shorter period. However, we believe that in trying to set absolute time limits the Government may be going too far and putting at risk the best possible outcome for the child. Our amendments attempt to redress that balance by reasserting a focus on the best interests of the child.

We have a major concern that as it currently stands, Clause 14 would curtail effective interventions with children and their families that last longer than 26 weeks. We need to differentiate clearly between delay caused by unacceptable process issues on the one hand and time extensions which really are in the best interests of the child on the other. Our amendments would allow longer timescales, specifically to meet the interests of the child. They would also enable the court to set out a timetable from the outset of proceedings rather than continually having to add eight-week extensions. This would give practitioners more clarity about how long they have to work with the child before a court decision is made.

We agree that delay in decision-making can have an adverse effect on children. However, there is a real danger that limiting the proceedings to 26 weeks would result in court decisions being made to meet the deadline, rather than to secure the best outcome for each child. We have to acknowledge that, in practice, some assessments and intervention programmes take longer than others; for example, where parents are seeking treatment for substance misuse. Care proceedings must enable opportunities for meaningful change in parental behaviour and those working with the family need to know that they will have the time to enable a successful intervention to take place. The NSPCC’s infant and family team model is a good example of such interventions, which can and often do require longer than 26 weeks but have shown improved outcomes for both the children and the adults involved.

We believe that there are a range of circumstances where a period longer than 26 weeks may be essential for the child’s needs to be addressed, including to allow a robust support package to be developed in special guardianship cases. This may include: support for difficult contact arrangements; preventing significant financial hardship; or where the proceedings work with the family has not been done or the situation has changed at the last minute, such that a family member needs to be considered late in the day. We are already hearing anecdotes of family members being denied an assessment once the case is in court. Parents who are consistently demonstrating to the Family Drug and Alcohol Court’s intensive support team that they are turning their life around need sufficient time to prove to the court that they can sustain such an improvement. A longer period may also be needed when potentially suitable family carers live abroad. In the case of older children, an emphasis on a fast timescale may be counterproductive, and particular care, sensitivity and dialogue will be necessary to allow the child’s long-term welfare needs to be met.

This list is not exhaustive but gives an illustration of cases where a delay could well be in the child’s interest. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for addressing these concerns in his recent letter. He explained that a number of pilots are taking place and that in due course the Family Procedure Rule Committee will consider whether to make court rules on these issues. However, we do not feel that this goes far enough. There are important issues here affecting the welfare of children at stake. The FPRC is under no obligation to make rules on time limits, and in any case we will not have had sight of the rules being made; meanwhile, we believe that a commitment to greater flexibility in the application of these rules is essential. Without taking away any of the good intent of the clause, which attempts to speed up court processes, we believe that our amendments, which would give the courts greater flexibility to extend deadlines where it is explicitly in the interest of the child, strike the right balance. We hope that noble Lords will support this position.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I welcome the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. I do not want anyone to be under any illusions: of course it is imperative that we tackle the court delays that have occurred in the system. We absolutely start from that point of view. We welcome all the steps that have been taken to modernise the family court system, including those to cut the time that is taken to deal with cases in the court. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that it is a cultural issue as much as anything and we need to tackle that culture.

Our amendments were never intended to be an open door for judges just to sit on their hands and delay decisions. The intention was that in very particular cases, which people could see from the outset were going to take longer than 26 weeks, they would be able to make a decision and spell out and justify that decision at the time. It was not just an opportunity for a delay for the sake of it.

I am slightly concerned about how these eight-week extensions are going to work. For example, if a family is going through an intensive period of therapy, knowing that the case is going back to be reviewed every eight weeks is fantastically stressful and disruptive to them when they feel that they are making progress. The evidence shows that a lot of court decisions were delayed because the processes were not in place, reports were not received in time or the evidence was not there at the time. If you are then going to deal with a rolling eight-week review, there are all sorts of opportunities for things to go wrong and for the evidence simply not to be before the court at the right time. I would be interested to know how these eight-week extensions work in practice. We may well need to have a review of them in the short term.

My noble friend Lord Ponsonby said that my examples were not theoretical, and I thank him for confirming that. The point is that the families that we are talking about know from the outset that it is going to take time to turn their lives around. They know they are going on quite a long journey. To feel that that there is this time pressure hanging over them will have a negative impact on the whole process.

[Lord McNally]

The noble Baroness was asking about how the extensions would work in practice. The request to extend the timetable for proceedings will be considered during the proceedings, as far as possible, and should not result in additional hearings. I should also explain to the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, that there could be further extensions. On the right of appeal, I have an explanation in my brief but I would rather write to him to make sure that I get it right. There is a limited right of appeal. I am sorry for interrupting the noble Baroness.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

I am not sure that the Minister has shed much light on things. I am now even more confused. Surely if there is going to be an eight-week extension, people have to meet every eight weeks to decide whether or not it should be further extended. You could say as a one-off, “We’ll allow a further eight weeks”, but then you will have to keep meeting every eight weeks to review that, if it is intended that there will be more than one eight-week extension. No doubt we can talk about this outside the Room and the noble Lord can clarify that further.

There is a serious point at the heart of this: what do we want to get out of the 26-week deadline? I hope that we all want children to have a chance to stay with their birth family, if possible. I feel that we will find over time that if courts are under pressure because of the 26-week timescale, the default position will be that children are taken into care because there simply will not be enough time to do the work with the birth parents. That is the real sadness behind what is being proposed here, because it is too stringent and lacking in flexibility.

Our position is that we want something that is absolutely and justifiably in the interests of the child and its welfare, and I still believe that what we are proposing would achieve that. For the time being, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 62 withdrawn.

Leveson Inquiry

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement.

It has not come as a great surprise to many on this side of the House, and perhaps around the Chamber, that we are debating this issue this afternoon. For those of us who over the past 18 months have been regularly debating the wisdom of allowing one media organisation to own 40 per cent of market share, it has often felt that the Secretary of State has interpreted the rules so as to give maximum advantage to News Corp’s bid. We may be surprised by the source of the new allegations—old friends settling scores, perhaps—but not the substance.

The Secretary of State’s current predicament might have been averted if he had listened to those of us around this Chamber, and many in the wider media world, who urged him to refer the merger of News Corp with BSkyB directly to the Competition Commission in the first instance. Instead, he chose the quasi-judicial role in overseeing the process that his previous support for the Murdochs would always have left open to question. The serious allegations made in yesterday’s e-mails seem to bear out the concerns that he proved unable to carry out this role in a suitably impartial and transparent way.

There are serious questions at the heart of this issue about the operation of the Ministerial Code, to which the Secretary of State must now be held to account—which is why it is important that he give a full and frank explanation to Parliament rather than waiting for Leveson to take its course. As we have seen over the past few months, many other careers have foundered on the evidence presented to Leveson in advance of his findings, and there is no reason for MPs to be immune from facing up to their immediate responsibilities and failings. Ultimately, it is not the job of the Leveson inquiry to oversee the implementation of the Ministerial Code.

First, therefore, in the light of the Statement, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether the Cabinet Secretary has been consulted on the process now being pursued to scrutinise Mr Hunt’s role, and is he happy that the Secretary of State continues to have responsibility for overseeing the BSkyB bid rather than Parliament? Is it the view of the Cabinet Secretary and the Prime Minister that consideration of any breaches of the Ministerial Code should now be put on hold until the end of the Leveson inquiry? If not, what steps have been put in place to pursue this issue further?

Secondly, in the light of the resignation of Adam Smith, Mr Hunt’s special adviser, does the Minister accept that this does not absolve Mr Hunt from responsibility for the actions of his adviser as set out in paragraph 3.3 of the Ministerial Code? Can she clarify what instructions were given to Adam Smith by Mr Hunt throughout the negotiating period, and whether he specifically disobeyed those instructions? Can we also be told the precise reasons for Mr Smith’s resignation?

Thirdly, can the Minister confirm whether the DCMS Permanent Secretary sanctioned the use of Adam Smith as a go-between with News Corp over that period? Did Mr Smith keep notes of his discussions, and, in the interests of transparency, can she assure us that they will be published?

Does the Minister accept, with the benefit of hindsight, that if there was to be any liaison between News Corp and the department during this highly sensitive period, it would have been better carried out by a departmental official? Does she also accept that it would have been improper for the Prime Minister to have any private discussions with Mr Murdoch on the subject of the bid regardless of whether he had direct quasi-judicial responsibility for the decision? Can she now tell us what the nature of that discussion was and whether it was minuted? If it was, should it not also now be published?

Next, can the Minister explain the rationale of giving News Corp private advance notice of Ofcom’s advice and the Secretary of State’s intentions before they were presented to Parliament, and can she state categorically that those opposing the bid were given equal access to the advance information?

Finally, what is the Government’s response to the question raised today by Robert Peston about the potential involvement of the Financial Services Authority in assessing whether there has been a leak of price-sensitive information? Mr Peston suggests that if Fred Michel did indeed receive advance information on 24 January that Mr Hunt intended to make an announcement the following day that he was minded to accept undertakings in lieu in order to prevent a referral to the Competition Commission, then that had price and market sensitivity and the FSA should investigate. Does the Minister agree that the FSA should be asked to check whether any breaches of financial trading rules were involved?

I do not apologise for raising a range of significant questions on this issue today, as there are important issues of propriety and confidence in government processes at stake. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s answers and would ask her to write if she does not have the full details and responses to hand.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell]

My Lords, I have not spoken on the subject of libraries previously and I support the noble Baroness in her amendment. My point follows on from what the noble Lord has just said and it is about local authorities rather than libraries. Local authorities have a spread of responsibilities which, particularly now, are accentuated by the burden of cuts that they have to impose. There is an opportunity for them to see libraries as an easy touch. There is a myth abroad that libraries are the territory of the well heeled middle class who regularly read books but who, in their own lives, buy the books that they want and then patronise the users of libraries by pretending that they are concerned. That is by no means the case.

The evidence of the use of libraries across the country is extremely varied from one library to another and from one part of the country to another. It is also varied in the use that is currently being made of libraries by the public. Libraries have long ceased to be only rows of books for the middle classes. They are used by mothers with buggies full of children and large areas are set aside to serve such people. They are used for story telling by informed librarians and teachers who spread the idea of reading stories among young people, thus giving them an appetite for creativity and reading for the rest of their lives. They are used by people who want to read newspapers but cannot afford to buy them. They are used by the old to find company and some interest in life. They are used by the local community to consult documents issued by agencies, government bodies and local authorities.

The spectrum of people who use libraries needs to be understood by local authorities. Who will make that available to them? We need an advisory council which can come across with the information that will help them make the right decision. The body to which this amendment refers does that.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Whitaker for pursuing this issue today and for allowing noble Lords from all sides of the House to emphasise the vital role that libraries continue to play in their community. Once again, the debate has highlighted the major disquiet that many people feel that their cherished local libraries will not survive the squeeze of local government cuts. This is at the heart of the problem because there is a sense that no one in government is championing their cause. You could say that libraries are an orphan service looking for shelter at a time of economic uncertainty and so far have not found it. On the one hand, policy for libraries still lies with DCMS—I am sure that the Minister will once again speak warmly of the important service that libraries provide—while, on the other, the money to fund the library service lies with DCLG, whose overriding obsession seems to be to cut budgets at any cost.

The Government are already taking steps to abolish the only other national library advisory body, the Museums, Libraries & Archives Council. Now, the only national body able to speak up for the service is to be subsumed into the Arts Council, with a real fear that it will disappear for good.

I do not feel in a position to judge the success of the Advisory Council on Libraries, but I agree with my noble friend Lady Bakewell that libraries around the country are already going through a revolution, opening up their venues to new forms of learning and studying, providing essential access to information and making the links between books, music, theatre and the wider arts. Staff are doing a magnificent job in redefining the service for the 21st century so that libraries remain relevant and loved by their local community.

How can we be reassured that the Arts Council will retain the professional knowledge to give the advice that libraries will need if they are to flourish? How can we be sure that the Arts Council will champion the service when it has so many other priorities? Is this amendment not just a small gesture to reassure libraries at least that the department is serious about protecting their interests at a time of such uncertainty in the rest of the sector?

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, for tabling the amendment and for giving the Government the opportunity to make it absolutely clear that we are committed to the effective management of library services. Consequently, we totally support the underlying spirit of what is a probing amendment. I thank the noble Baroness also for her openness to constructive dialogue on this issue. It has led to a position where the department is under no illusions about the importance of this issue in your Lordships’ House and where the Government can provide clear reassurances about how advice is provided to local authorities.

It is worth me making clear from the outset that we believe that existing legislation provides sufficient protection for library services. The Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 requires the Secretary of State to superintend, and to promote the improvement of, the library service provided by local authorities in England and to make certain that local authorities fulfil their duties as defined by the Act. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, made a good point about local authorities. That is why we are pressing for improvement.

Ministers are committed to fulfilling their statutory duties. The Secretary of State is providing important practical help and advice for libraries and contributing to the improvement and development of the sector through the Future Libraries Programme. The programme was announced in July and is led by the Museums, Libraries & Archives Council and the Local Government Association. They support more than 30 local authorities participating in the programme to explore options that will help them to deliver more efficiently the front-line services that communities want and need. In line with the decentralisation agenda, the programme encourages local authorities to find their own solutions to the challenges that they face.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, felt that there was no support for libraries. I say to her with due respect that she is mistaken, as the goal of the Future Libraries Programme is to share insights from the 10 pilot projects. This will allow local authorities to identify ways in which effective and efficient services can be maintained by taking a longer-term and more strategic approach to the way that libraries are improved. In addition to the Future Libraries Programme, the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council promotes best practice and provides support and guidance to local authorities. Arts Council England will assume responsibility for improving and developing library services following the abolition of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council. We will work with Arts Council England and Local Government Improvement and Development to continue to make the best-quality advice available and accessible to support local authorities. We will be discussing a new programme of projects to drive the improvement of library services.

This Government are acutely aware of the statutory obligations needed to improve library services and to make certain that local authorities have the advice and support that they need to deliver an effective service. The noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, is right: there are good ones and bad ones, and I reiterate the need to make the improvements. This obligation and this Government’s commitment already exist without the addition of a further statutory duty such as that proposed in the noble Baroness’s amendment, and therefore I hope that she will feel able to withdraw it.