House Of Lords: Appointments System

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the conclusion of the report of the Lord Speaker’s Committee on the Size of the House that recent developments “have brought the appointments system into question”.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, of course, the Government will carefully note the report. Our view is that the life peerage system works well—

[Lord True (Con)]

There are certain beneficiaries of the life peerage system who seem to disagree.

We think that members of the House of Lords Appointments Commission do a good job and I have every confidence that new members coming in will do the same. To tweet this morning, as the noble Baroness did, about “ongoing corrupt patronage” from Prime Ministers does not help confidence in the appointments system.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am very flattered that the noble Lord knows about my tweets. That is very nice. It is obvious that the system of prime ministerial patronage is not working. Various Prime Ministers over the past couple of years have clearly put people into your Lordships’ House who have no intention of contributing to our work and probably do not have the skills to do so anyway. This is not about the House of Lords Appointments Commission, which I admire very much. The Green Party believes that that system is archaic and corrupt. Does the Leader of the House agree with me even a tiny bit?

[Lord True (Con)]

I very often agree with the noble Baroness, except I have never tweeted in my life, and I recommend her not to. The policy of the Green Party is to replace the system of appointment—which has given us all the excellent noble Lords here on these Benches in their parties—with a PR-democratically elected Chamber. Frankly, that would simply replace an accountable appointments system, where Prime Ministers are openly responsible for who they appoint, with an unaccountable appointments system of lists drawn up by secretive party secretariats.

House of Lords: Regional Representativeness

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, there is plenty of time; I think we can hear from the noble Baroness from the Greens, and then from the Labour Party.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Greens are very good at geographical representation, and when we have 13% in the polls—as apparently we do this week —perhaps we ought to have more representation here in your Lordships’ House. Obviously, if there were more Greens, your Lordships would hear less from the two Greens that you have already. Is that not a win-win?

COP 27

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, on the ODA budget, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made it very clear that he wishes to see a return to 0.7% as the target for overseas aid. That remains the position of the Government. As far as specific action and lines of finance are concerned, I am not in a position to say anything at the Dispatch Box. Again, I will contact the right reverend Prelate, but I remind the House that we are a world leader in development support. We spent more than £11 billion on overseas development aid in 2021. We remain committed to the International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Act 2015 and to spending 0.7% of GNI once the fiscal situation allows. That has been made clear from the top of the Government.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned energy security. Let us remember that this Government have had 12 years to develop some sort of plan for that. My question is: we still do not have enough legislation referring back to the policy that was decided in Glasgow, so are we going to see some legislation on the promises the Government made then and, perhaps, more legislation on the promises they are going to make in Sharm el-Sheikh?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, obviously there is energy legislation before your Lordships’ House. I remind the noble Baroness, whom I thank for the jam—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It was a bribe!

[Lord True (Con)]

—that the United Kingdom was the first major economy to commit to a legally binding target of achieving net zero by 2050. That is the law of the land and we remain fully behind it. Again, the noble Baroness implies that not much has been done. Actually, we cut our emissions by over 44% between 1990 and 2019, and that is faster than any other G7 country. We have also set into law the world’s most ambitious 2035 climate change target. So let us seek to achieve those ambitious targets, and we will continue to accelerate the production of clean energy such as nuclear, wind and solar.

House of Lords: Appointments

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 18th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lords. The noble Lord knows that I have the greatest esteem for him, and that normally disclosures relating to national security matters are not made. Generally, for any appointment, from the lowest in the land to the highest, data protection and freedom of information applies. But in this case, information has been provided separately to the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, which illustrates that the Government are acting in good faith in responding to Parliament’s requests.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, during lockdown, there were all sorts of laws of the land about gatherings and yet No. 10—the Prime Minister and his Cabinet colleagues—broke those laws. Why are there some laws that they respect and some they feel free to break?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, that is rather wide of the Question. The law of the land is something that we should all respect and that includes, if I may say so, extreme campaigners for green issues.

Lobbying of Ministers

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, we are certainly aware of those points and, obviously, the investigation by Mr Boardman looked into issues relating to the first point that she made. I assure the House that all the various reports and recommendations put forward are being considered. I hope to come back to your Lordships before too long with further material proposals.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it is good to know who has given what to whom, but how do we monitor what the person who has been given money is doing for the money? For example, it is reported that the Prime Minister has taken £2.3 million from Russian sources since he was elected Prime Minister. What has he done for that?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an allegation under privilege; perhaps she would like to repeat that outside the House.

House of Lords: Appointments

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lords, I do not agree with the noble Baroness opposite. I note that the Labour leader has said that he wants

“a democratic second chamber representing the nations and regions of the UK.”

I am sure that that gets fervent support on the Benches opposite. I repeat the point that I made: there is a factor in the way that this House operates. The Government have suffered 164 defeats in this House in two years—well over twice as many as were inflicted on Gordon Brown’s whole Government and more than in the first five years of Sir Tony Blair’s Government.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, in view of the climate emergency and the huge problems facing the world, in which Greens are extremely well versed, will the Minister please suggest to the Prime Minister that in his resignation honours he could perhaps put a few Greens into your Lordships’ House ?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I think the Greens are very capable of making their voice heard in your Lordships’ House.

Downing Street Christmas Parties

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Thursday 9th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend is entirely right—he perhaps put it more elegantly than I did—that there is a political strand to this. In this country, there is an ancient presumption that people are innocent until proved guilty, and I believe that it would not be appropriate to comment on or prejudge the outcome of an ongoing investigation. I will hold to that position.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

Council of Europe Convention on Access to Official Documents

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Tuesday 20th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con) [V]]

My Lords, wherever, if ever, corruption exists, it should be mercilessly rooted out and dealt with; I think that would be the united resolve of your Lordships’ House, of the Government and the whole of Parliament. All central government departments are required to publish datasets, including central government contracts, tender opportunities and contract award notices over £10,000, central government spending over £25,000, the gender pay gap data—I will not prolong the list, because other Members wish to ask questions. However, I stress to your Lordships that a great deal of information is voluntarily published by the Government and that we do and will adhere to the law.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I am absolutely thrilled to hear that the Government are, in the words of the Minister, committed to transparency. A few Members of this House—I do not know how many—have been told that MI5 has files on them. Can the Minister therefore, in this spirit of transparency, get those files for us so that we can see exactly what information is held on us? I cannot believe that any of us is a threat to national security—apart from, obviously, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.

[Lord True (Con) [V]]

I could never conceive that the noble Baroness would be a threat to anyone and I rejoice in her kindly words always. The reality is that Parliament agreed in 2000 that it was appropriate to protect sensitive information from inappropriate disclosure and legislated for exemptions in some areas, including absolute exemptions for information relating to security and intelligence agencies and communication with the sovereign. That decision was taken by Parliament, and in the spirit of adhering to the law, the Government continue to follow that provision.

House of Lords Reform

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 30th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I always pay tribute to the noble Lord opposite, who has been a distinguished servant of this country, this House and the other House. When we are looking at the role, future and reform of your Lordships’ House, perhaps we need to look a little wider than the speck of dust to which the noble Lord referred.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The Minister has been in his Cabinet Office post since February 2020, so was it he who told the Prime Minister that it was perfectly okay to ignore the Burns committee report on the House of Lords, which was trying to reduce the size of this House? It was a two-out, one-in policy. Did he tell the Prime Minister it was okay to just keep on putting Peers here?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, it is perfectly reasonable, given the House’s membership—not least the fact that its average age is 70—for it to be refreshed from time to time. I repeat an answer I gave before: neither the previous Prime Minister nor this one has accepted that the House of Lords should be able to impose a cap on its own size.

Ministerial Code and Register of Ministers’ Interests

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the independent adviser has independence and authority. Indeed, the noble Lord opposite has underlined the authority that attaches to his record. In our constitution, the Prime Minister is responsible for hiring and firing Ministers. At the end of the day, that has been the case under Labour and Conservative Prime Ministers. The responsibility lies with the Prime Minister for hiring, firing and ultimately making judgments on the performance of Ministers.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, in an average year, 4,000 women are sent to prison for not paying their television licence of £159, with consequent disruption to them, their future lives and the lives of their children. Does the Minister think that not paying your television licence is a greater or lesser crime than those contained in the allegations against our Prime Minister, members of his Cabinet and many Ministers?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I try to make it a habit never to comment on the BBC, but I take note of what the noble Baroness says about television licences. She used a very important word in her question: “allegations”. Some are allegations; I believe some are smears. Most of them have been answered, and they are also being investigated. I suggest that we see what happens.

EU Exit: Negotiations and the Joint Committee

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 21st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend asks an important question. Article 15 of the Northern Ireland protocol establishes a joint consultative working group on implementation of the protocol to serve as a forum for the exchange of information and mutual consultation, including the EU informing the UK about planned Union Acts covered by the protocol. The United Kingdom has committed, and I repeat this commitment to my noble friend, to including representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive as part of the UK delegation to that working group.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, we in this House are trying to help the Government meet their promises to the electorate. In fact, we are doing a “reverse Salisbury”—I thank George Peretz QC for that phrase. I do not understand how a single Tory on the Government Benches can possibly vote against the election manifesto of last year. Can the Minister give details on the issues of environment, animal welfare and workers’ rights? Are we in agreement or disagreement with the EU on them? What are our Government asking for? What is the EU asking for? What blockages are coming from disagreements in the Cabinet?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I regret that I found it very difficult to follow the noble Baroness’s question because of the quality of the microphone. I think that at some point she asked about details of the state of play in certain aspects of negotiations, on which I would have to reserve the Government’s position in the normal way. I will examine Hansard, and if there is a way in which I can say anything, I will. I repeat that the Government have been involved in a delicate negotiation; as I told the House, there has been an interesting statement this morning, which we are examining. I reserve the Government’s position.

Intelligence and Security Committee: Russia Report

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Thursday 9th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, again, I reject the charge of delay or conspiracy of any kind, but I do agree most strongly with what the noble Lord, with his great experience, has said. We know that disinformation is a common tactic used by the Kremlin, and we always take proactive action to defend our democracy. The Government are engaging with international partners, industry and civil society to tackle this threat.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

I would have thought that it would be in the Conservative Party’s interest to have the report published, simply because there are so many rumours swirling around about Russian interference in planning projects, for example—and it is true that the Conservative Party has taken £3.5 million from Russian donors over the past 10 years. To quash those rumours, would it not be better to publish the report and then if there is any fault anywhere, the donors could be given their money back?

[Lord True]

My Lords, another series of wild charges, which I reject, has been read into the record. I repeat that an announcement on the membership of the committee will be made shortly and a Motion will be tabled for agreement by both Houses next week. The report is the property of the committee, not the Government.

Covid-19: Infection Rate

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Monday 6th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the likelihood of an increase in COVID-19 infections as a result of lifting the restrictions in place to address the pandemic.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, tremendous sacrifices have been made by so many people to get the virus under control. The Government continue to be guided by the science and are easing restrictions in a cautious, phased way that protects lives and the NHS. We are closely monitoring the infection rate and are easing restrictions only when it is safe to do so.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

I thank the noble Lord for his Answer, but I consider it absolutely inadequate. In the UK, during the epidemic, we have had more than 60,000 deaths, with 20,000 of those in care homes, leading to endless grief; we have had a failed test, track and isolate programme; we have had PPE failures; and we have had no real-time information to allow local councils to deal with cases properly. Today, the Government are now blaming the public for ignoring their confusing messages on easing the lockdown. Mistakes have been made, and that has cost lives. Is it not time that the Government admit their world-class, world-leading incompetence in running the country?

[Lord True]

My Lords, that is a little wide of the original Question, which was about our view of the likelihood of increased infections as a result of lifting restrictions. If I were to write the history of this event, I would not write it in the lurid terms of the noble Baroness. I assure her that, at every stage, the Government and their advisers consider the best advice and take what they believe to be the right action at the right time.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, if that argument had been put before this great House for 700 years—with the House told that every time a vote in the other place produced a majority it must be silent—this House would not have endured. This House has a right and a duty to respond. I believe that we should consider the matter of the guillotine separately. On this I agree with the noble Baroness opposite that the sensible thing is for an accommodation to be reached between the opposition party and the governing party, which must involve a lot of things, including acquiescing to this general election, about which we do not know whether they are keen. It is clear that the House of Commons is not functioning. In those circumstances, of course there would be no need for her guillotine and no need for our response—but that is certainly above my pay grade. That accommodation having not yet been reached is no excuse for her to come and present to the House something so exceptional, so draconian and so unprecedented, and then to complain when that gets an exceptional, unprecedented and possibly draconian response. If there is no guillotine Motion, I will shut up. But as long as this House is prevented—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

I thank the noble Lord. One way, of course, would be if Prorogation were delayed so that this House had plenty of time to discuss it. Will the noble Lord undertake to lobby the Prime Minister on that?

[Lord True]

No, I will not. I will not be sidetracked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

Then do not impose the guillotine; do not use the closure Motion on this issue. I shall give way to a representative of a party that opposes power.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Oh, not at all. I am so sorry; you are completely wrong on that. I thank the noble Lord for sitting down; I wish it were for longer. As I have said previously here, I voted leave; I did not vote for no deal. What I am trying to do here today is stop no deal. The person who had the power is the Prime Minister, who decided to prorogue Parliament, to close it down and to shut it up. It is not this side of the Chamber that is stopping debate; it is that side, and you have to take responsibility for that.

[Lord True]

That of course is entirely false, my Lords. The Prime Minister of Great Britain, whoever it is, has no power to enter this Chamber. He may come and stand at the Bar of this House and listen to its proceedings or sit on the steps of the Throne, but he has no power here. It is in your Lordships’ gift to decide whether to submit to the principle of the guillotine, and the guillotine of the guillotine, which has been put forward by the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip. “Shut up”. Is that what we are going to accept in future in this Chamber? I beg to move.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lord True

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

Outrageous? Let us be grown-up here. Everybody understands the purport of the remark. Mr Johnson does not wish to prorogue Parliament. He has not said so, and he does not need to, because, following the Gina Miller case, there has been an Act of Parliament, passed by this Parliament, in this Session, requiring the UK by statute to leave the EU, as requested by the British people, on 31 October. It is simply rubbish to say that there might be an attempt stop Parliament legislating on Brexit. Parliament has already legislated, and talk about a so-called unlawful shutdown of Parliament or hyperbole about a ban on Parliament sitting reflects nothing Mr Johnson has ever said. It is so much chaff thrown up by the ditchers among the more extreme referendum deniers.

If Parliament wishes to stop Brexit, the route is open: a vote of no confidence in the Government, and the installation of a new Government. That new Government can turn to the British people and say, as I often hear people say in this House, “Sorry, 17.4 million, you are stupid, you did not know what you were voting for, you do not understand the facts as we clever people do, so, sorry, Brexit is off”. If you want to change the policy and say that and do that to the British people, change the Government. That is the proper way to proceed.

It is indicative of the state of the Labour Party—the consistent deliverer, as I said the other day, of 220 votes in Division after Division in the other place—that instead of taking that open and honest course, challenging the Government in a vote of no confidence, it footles around in the small print of a Northern Ireland Bill, shuffling courageously sideways under the genial cloak provided by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and into the arms of the Liberal Democrats, who, given half a chance, would snuff Labour out.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I would like to make two points. First, I voted for Brexit, not for a no-deal Brexit, and that must be true for a lot of other people. Can the noble Lord please stop dividing us into these two camps? Secondly—I am sure that this is unparliamentary—I cannot see the point of what the noble Lord is saying. He is ranging so far across this debate that he is losing sight of the very simple amendment before us, and he is not taking the House with him. I can think only that he is doing this for the newspapers or for—I do not know; do we have constituents?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I admitted at the outset that I am unlikely to take this House with me. However, there are certain things that someone who has the privilege, right and duty to be in Parliament and come to this place has the right and duty to say. While I may be saying things that are not congenial to many in this House, they are not disagreed with by some people in this country.

It is germane to point out certain facts about the Labour Party—a party that will campaign to remain in any election or referendum provoked by a Conservative Government, but which will campaign to leave in the unlikely event that it ever forms a Government. Brexit on Monday, remain on Tuesday, Brexit on Wednesday, will not say on Thursday, does not have a clue on Friday—that is the official policy of that apology of an Opposition on this great question of our times.

The third strand of my argument against this amendment is that by floating claims that only use of the royal prerogative could secure Brexit and that Mr Johnson wants to do that, it is not him but the peddlers of that canard who risk dragging the monarchy into political controversy. Prorogation is perfectly normal after a Session so long, a new gracious Speech is normal, with the formation of a new ministry, and, heaven knows, we can surely do better than the ragbag of legislation and off home before dinner that has been the staple of both Houses lately. At some point, a new Prime Minister must be able to seek a Prorogation and a gracious Speech. That is the right and proper routine of our parliamentary life, and why should Mr Johnson be asked to deny himself that right? It does no service to that incontestable fact to besmirch the act of Prorogation as if it was some kind of shabby and little-known political manoeuvre. All of us, on every side of the argument, have a duty to show restraint in relation to the role of the Crown. As I said in Committee, I cannot conceive how the courts could, or wisely should, construe the motive for the advice given by a Prime Minister to a Sovereign in a private audience. I would rather we did not go there. We have the right to do many things in life, but we have the duty to ask ourselves sometimes, “Is it wise?”.

Here is the fourth and final strand of why I object to these amendments—the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, put his finger on it on Monday. What on earth are we doing here, discussing all this on a Bill that relates narrowly to the future of the Northern Ireland Executive? Only last week Your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, to which I have the honour to belong, restated our concern—we all assented to the report, including the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, who is not in his place—about the persistent fast-tracking of legislation on Northern Ireland. Yet here we are, not only fast-tracking a Northern Ireland Bill but trying to festoon it like a Christmas tree with barely related measures which have never properly been considered. That is a bad way to treat Parliament—