Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Sharkey

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 19th October 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharkey (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I have only just learned that if we do not pass the government amendments in this group, we put at risk the required legislative consent order for Northern Ireland. I had intended to oppose Amendments 2, 7 and 14; I did not understand why Amendment 2 was necessary or had any real force or meaning—in any case, I much preferred Amendment 5 —and Amendment 7 seemed downright confusing, since its net effect is to impose an obligation on the Minister to have regard to certain things when considering making regulations but no obligation to consider the specified things when actually making these regulations.

I have spoken to the Minister and will now not oppose the government amendments. However, I feel that we have been bounced. I first realised the Government’s intention to move when I read today’s Chair’s guidance and I understood that there was a Northern Ireland problem when I was given, about 40 minutes ago, a copy of the note from the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, from yesterday. We were not copied in on that note. I strongly feel that this is all very unsatisfactory.

The Minister has not really answered the question that I asked him in our impromptu interval of why we need to rush. Could he explain why delaying the start of the legislative consent order process until Report would be a problem? It is still not clear to me. I trust the Minister’s assessment but I do not understand how he arrived at it. In his note to the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, he says, for example, that the delay would mean that we could not meet some unspecified timing objective but he prays in aid the notion that the minimum interval between Committee and Report is a contributing factor. We can change that interval; we could choose. Could the Minister explain again why it is necessary to do this today?

[Baroness Jolly (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a useful debate on health and safety when making regs. The Government have tried to strengthen this with their amendments in this group. My noble friend Lord Sharkey just spoke about that; I too will look at them in the light of Committee and determine what to come back with on Report.

On government Amendments 2, 7 and 68, we should have these regulations only if we are absolutely satisfied that they would promote health and safety. Government amendments 51, 54 and 56 are all about the promotion of one or more of health and welfare of animals, health and safety of the public, and the environment. There is a clear connection with animals and the environment; has the Minister spoken to Defra and BEIS about these amendments?

I also wonder that we are not discussing those medical devices that are joint veterinary and medical devices. As I said at Second Reading, veterinary medicine is becoming much more sophisticated and slightly less agricultural—that is not the right way to describe it, but it is now very high-tech in certain areas. Could the Minister outline the legal situation here, as, when we are discussing medical devices, veterinary devices are not included? Clearly this should fall within the scope of the Bill but, as I see it, there are no amendments covering that.

Moving to the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, I supported Amendment 5. We have left the EU, but I see no reason why we cannot use its regulation if we think it cannot be improved on. I was happy to put my name to this amendment and agree that subjective measures are nowhere near as effective as objective ones. This is an area where objectivity is much more important than subjectivity.

The amendment elegantly reflects the objective of safeguarding the public health element in EU regulations. A Secretary of State has a duty to maximise the public health of our English population. I am sure it is not written down anywhere, but that is absolutely what he or she is responsible for doing. As such, I firmly believe that this amendment belongs in the Bill. My noble friend Lady Walmsley spoke powerfully about Amendment 5; we should really consider her arguments when we determine what we will do on Report.

My final point is on the objective of Amendment 70 to

“safeguard public health through the supply of medical devices.”

This amendment elegantly reflects the objective of safeguarding public health in EU regulations. There is much to look at in this group. I am sure that we will determine what comes back on Report later in the day.