Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, as another non-lawyer, perhaps I may join in very briefly. I have listened to everything that has been said on this point, and what the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said is particularly important. The Lord Chancellor has a different role. He might not have all the legal discipline of a lawyer, if he is not a lawyer.

I should like to make another point on the importance of independence that people are unfolding at this time. It illustrates the extent to which, if we cram everything into such a short space of time and so many Bills overlap—I am thinking about the Welfare Reform Bill and this Bill—it tends to leave us all wondering just how many amendments should be grouped together and whether they are being given the proper consideration that they should have. I very much support the intentions behind this group of amendments.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The issue that concerns me in Clause 4 is subsection (3). Under subsection (4):

“The Lord Chancellor may not give directions or guidance about the carrying out of … functions in relation to individual cases”.

That is fair enough, but he must,

“comply with directions given by the Lord Chancellor about the carrying out of”,

his “functions”, and he must,

“have regard to guidance given by the Lord Chancellor about the carrying out of”,

his “functions”.

What does that mean? Does it mean, for example, that the Lord Chancellor can phone the director or call him into his office and say, “Now, look here, you’ve got far too many of these judicial reviews going through in relation to government business. I am not telling you about any particular case, so I am complying with subsection (4). But when it comes to subsection (3), would you please bear in mind that my guidance is that we have got too many of these cases? The judges are complaining. The lists are full.”? What exactly is intended by Clause 4(3)?

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, we have heard legal speeches from the top lawyers in this country, and no one should fail to recognise that. In particular, as my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss said, this is a very modest amendment that clearly takes account of the situation that we are all in. However, those of us—and there are many in this Chamber—who sat through Committee on the Welfare Reform Bill know very well where the needs are. There are needs other than those who are disabled or have special needs. As we heard, I think a couple of days ago, there are those who suddenly hit crises and need help.

Above all—from the way I look at these things; I wish we knew more—I support my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham’s plea for rehabilitation. One should consider the amount of money that we could save if we actually addressed the point about early intervention and all the matters that are now rising to the top of the list of things that are accepted but to which we are still not prepared to give the resources that are needed.

I also realise that there are difficult loyalties between members of the coalition. One or two of your Lordships have made their position clear, and I admire them for it. It is difficult to vote against your party. I almost beg the Minister to realise that the amendment would meet his and the coalition’s needs and should be accepted.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I have been involved with legal aid for longer than anyone except my noble friend Lord Phillips. I started in 1958.