Schools: Bullying

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Nash]

I am not aware of that centre’s work but I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could advise me of it. We will definitely look at further such facilities.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, bullying is rampant throughout our society—even, it would appear, in areas such as the BBC, as we have heard via the media. Given that prevention is better than cure, as everybody has stressed, what practical steps are being taken to ensure not only that playground or classroom bullying is classified as absolutely unacceptable but that every school is required to eliminate it? Will the Government publish a document giving examples of how this has already been successfully achieved in some areas?

[Lord Nash]

We should consider that. We have tightened teachers’ disciplinary powers, including their powers to search and confiscate, for instance, mobile phones and remove inappropriate material, and, particularly, to search for text bullying. We are continuing to focus on these areas.

Children: Looked-after Children

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham. As usual, we have all learned a great deal from what he has said. I join other speakers in thanking my noble friend Lord Listowel for this debate and paying tribute to his undoubted expertise in and concern for high standards in the area of looked-after children.

This afternoon’s debate is not dissimilar from the one that took place a few weeks ago on the importance of child development and well-being—except that this debate is focused not just on ensuring well-being for all UK children, vital though that is, but on effectively protecting the most vulnerable group of children from exploitation and sexual abuse. Of course, I mean children who, for one reason or another, have had to be placed in the care of their local authority.

I am not going to repeat the concerns I expressed in that debate about the potential for exploiting such vulnerable children through the rapid growth of complex modern media techniques—except perhaps to say that Jimmy Savile’s horrifying and equally undetected volume of crimes has reminded us of yet another area of child abuse and exploitation that has remained hidden for far too long. That appalling discovery is on top of the Rochdale gang of nine men recently sent to prison who, as we know, had deliberately targeted, groomed and sexually abused looked-after children from local residential care homes.

We also know that the number of children trafficked into the UK has risen, with the official number of 234 children in 2011 believed in reality to be more than double that, with about half of these trafficked for sexual exploitation. Today, like other noble Lords who have spoken, I want to be reassured that some of the most glaring inadequacies in service standards are going to be addressed and tackled; above all, that there will be much better information-gathering and indeed agreement about what basic information is required as well as shared.

The Children’s Society is surely right to be concerned that children who go missing repeatedly are not, apparently, always considered to be at risk. It is surely not sensible that Ofsted does not share the location of children’s homes with local police, thus reducing their ability to safeguard effectively. I hope that the Minister will be able to report that a change in this practice is under way.

Another issue is that, in some parts of the country, looked-after children often experience multiple placements and are often located a long distance from family and friends, also involving quite often a change in school. Surely, as others have said, the only acceptable reason for moving a young person out of their home area is if it is clearly in their best interests. There is far too little emphasis as well on what each looked-after child wants and whether the local authority has genuinely listened and acted on their wishes. For them to have the right to an advocate to speak on their behalf on these issues is therefore essential. So it is disturbing to hear that, although theoretically available, one third of all local authorities do not report any spending on this service. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, I hope that the Minister will confirm that the Government are considering giving all children in local authority care a statutory right to independent advocacy as part of placement planning.

It is surely interesting—in fact, I would say extraordinary—that nearly half the 5,000 children living in children’s homes are apparently placed outside their local authority area despite the fact that local authorities have a duty to provide sufficient homes within their own area. It will be valuable to hear the Government’s view on that.

As I have mentioned already, placements outside a child’s home local authority often also include the need to change schools, which can have an unsettling effect on looked-after children’s academic results. A 2011 study showed that only 53% of looked-after pupils achieved the expected level in English and only 52% in maths at key stage 2, compared to the average student’s achievement of 82% in English and 80% in maths. Therefore, monitoring and supporting looked-after pupils’ academic achievement is clearly important. School governors have some responsibility for admissions, and under certain circumstances, as we know, a looked-after child can be admitted even if the school is already full. That is in addition to the school’s duty to prioritise looked-after children if the school is oversubscribed. All these are fairly recent changes, but we need to hear how they are working and that they are being followed. Again, I hope that the Minister will agree that all our schools should continue to give particular emphasis to ensuring that looked-after pupils achieve their potential.

The last issue that I want to address is the importance of the use of early intervention policies, particularly with families which have had problems for generations. So much money could be saved and the potential of young lives realised if this approach was prioritised. Certainly, the fact that many more midwives and health visitors are being recruited over the next few years will be an important step in the right direction, particularly if that is combined with more co-operation, training and information-sharing between all professionals involved. Voluntary organisations such as Home-Start already play an important role here. They need proper recognition and support, as do kinship carers and foster parents. Noble Lords have already mentioned the importance of additional support or funding for fostered children who need an additional period of placement from, for example, age 18 to 22. With all these schemes, as we all know, adequate resources are vital to seeing that results are achieved.

It is heartening to note that all directors of children’s services across the country are clearly concerned about these inadequate standards. In their paper, What is Care For?, they ask for a total re-examination of the care system. Andrew Webb, vice-president of ADCS and one of the authors of the paper, has said:

“The care system serves some of the most vulnerable children and young people in our society, and sometimes, frankly, it does not serve them as well as it could”.

Let that be encouragement to the Minister and the Government to show what really important changes they can make.

Schools: Pupil Premium

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand how dear a subject that is to the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. The reason that we have gone for a single and simple measure of eligibility, based around free school meal status, is that we think it is important to keep the pupil premium as simple as possible so that we can learn the lessons and not make it too complex. The best proxy that we felt that we could have was economic disadvantage, because we know the difference there is between how the poorest children achieve and how better-off children achieve. That is why we went for that simple measure.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, given that 50% of the schools are perhaps not using the pupil premium effectively, what role does the Minister expect school governors to play in ensuring that the money does in fact go to the right pupils?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, agrees with me on the importance of the role of governors generally in concentrating on the performance of the school and the achievement of pupils. One of the key indicators that there will be, through Ofsted and the performance tables, is how schools are doing, particularly for children on free school meals. Governors can play an extremely important part in holding the head, and the rest of the school, to account for delivering that.

Schools: Careers Advisers

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, it is the case in terms of producing statutory guidance. The department’s view, which I think is the right view, is that statutory guidance should always as short, focused and clear as possible. But it is the case, as my noble friend mentions, that there could be benefits in having some practical information and additional support to schools to help them to understand what their duties are. It is the case that my honourable friend John Hayes, who is the responsible Minister, would be very happy to have that discussion with my noble friend Lady Sharp and to see how that practical information could best be provided.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, the Minister will know that there are many industries and careers in which girls are under-represented. Within the Government’s plans, do they have specific arrangements for seeing that girls are enlightened about some of the better paid and more needed careers within the communities that they live in?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The general point to which the noble Baroness refers would be well illustrated in the kind of work that we want to do with university technical colleges, trying to make sure that girls, for example, have the opportunity to study and get those technical qualifications that will lead to well paid jobs. In terms specifically of the guidance, consistent with my earlier answer, our overall approach is to say that we would trust schools to take the best judgment as to what is in the interests of their pupils, whether that is boys or girls. But I agree with her that careers guidance is important for children of both sexes.

Schools: Parenting Skills

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with my noble friend’s remarks about those appalling cases, which are shocking. I also agree that good PSHE in schools can help to raise some of those issues, educate children and warn some of those who are most at risk of the kind of behaviours that they ought to avoid. Part of the PSHE review is looking at the question of best practice, the quality of the teaching—which is vital—and the content of PSHE.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, bearing in mind that citizenship education, through which it was intended to teach parenting, became devolved and was never sufficiently taken up, can the Minister assure us that parenting skills are emphasised to the young people concerned, because it will be one way to encourage early intervention to be successful, particularly if you can make it clear to young children from deprived backgrounds that their skills are going to be important for future generations?

Education: Languages

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, could the Minister tell us what the Government are doing to encourage greater use of ICT for language teaching via social networking—

[Lord Strathclyde]

I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness, but Questions have now gone beyond 30 minutes.

Education: Engineering

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am aware that this matter has given rise to some strong opinions among those who are committed to the engineering industry. I am afraid that I am not able to give the noble Lord the commitment that he would like, because the overriding objective of trying to simplify the qualifications is to have a consistent approach across different subjects and areas, and the benefit that we think we will derive from simplification is worth striving for. I recognise that there are strong concerns. I am glad that engineering employers are talking to the awarding organisations that want to carry on offering the principal learning element of the engineering diploma, and I hope that that will continue. I urge the noble Lord, with his experience, to help us in those conversations.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that whether one GCSE equivalent or more is required to qualify, there is an even greater need to increase the number of girls who apply for this career and make it much more attractive to them, because their skills will clearly be needed much more than in the past?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of that, and I know that it is one of the issues that the university technical colleges are grappling with because they are keen to encourage that kind of take-up. The noble Baroness is right to remind us of that, and I hope that we will see the figures increasing.

Education and Skills Act 2008

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend about the importance of the guidance and it being clear and intelligible. I am not able to give a specific date today as to precisely when we will be publishing that. I fall back on the normal formulation of “soon”. I know how much the issue matters to my noble friend and I will make her point and point out the arrival of the anniversary to my honourable friend in the department.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, will the Minister agree that, by becoming a school governor and making an important contribution to their school’s well-being, pupils can gain early experience of citizenship that will be so important later in life, so this will be a really important step in the right direction? Can he please encourage his fellow Ministers to encourage all those who are going to make that decision in future?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree about the advantages and benefits that could come from schools involving their pupils in decisions affecting them and the school. No one will know better than the noble Baroness the extent to which that happens, given the large number of schools—I think 95 per cent of schools—that have school councils. Many governing bodies have pupils as associate members. I know the noble Baroness would like to go further and faster on that, and we had a good debate about it during the Education Bill. I agree with her in that, where schools want to find ways of involving and encouraging children, I would very much support that. Where the Government and the noble Baroness parted company during the Education Bill was over making that a requirement and compulsory in both primary and secondary schools. However, the principle of involving children is an important one.

Education Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

2: Clause 38, page 43, line 7, at end insert—
“( ) persons elected as student governors,”

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, Amendment 2 would enable students to become full members of school governing bodies, as was the case before 1986. Following government amendments, the Bill's requirements for governing bodies more accurately reflect the make-up of the school community. However, one significant absence is that of students.

I was not able to be in my place when this matter was last discussed in Committee on 20 July and I extend my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for speaking to the relevant amendment in my absence. I understand that the Minister has today received a letter from members of the National Participation Forum, which includes the Schools Network, the British Youth Council, the Children’s Rights Alliance for England, the National Children’s Bureau and UNICEF, all of which support the proposal.

These organisations and many more support children's rights to be involved in decisions that affect them. Children spend a substantial part of their lives in school and it is only right that they should be able to sit on school governing bodies as full members. At present, students can become only associate members, with no voting rights for under-18s and limited voting rights for over-18s.

The existence of school councils and other mechanisms for student participation, useful as they are, should not rule out the possibility of student governors. No one would argue, for example, that teachers should be excluded from governing bodies, or given fewer voting rights, simply because they already benefit from union representation. The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child has specifically called on countries to put into legislation children's rights to participate in school boards and committees. This Bill presents us with an excellent opportunity to ensure that schools consistently involve children in their governing bodies. This crucial perspective would result in better decision-making for the whole school community.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for returning to this issue. As she said, unfortunately she was not able to be present at Committee stage, where some of the important points that she has raised tonight were debated, although she kindly gave us advance notice. I am glad that she has raised them again tonight.

The noble Baroness spoke eloquently of the importance of encouraging pupils to participate in decisions that affect them. I think that support for the principle that she is seeking to achieve is shared on all sides of the House, by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. I would certainly agree with her that involving pupils in that way can help to make sure that decisions properly reflect the interests of pupils, contribute to their development and encourage them to feel a sense of involvement and pride in their school. It is also of course a fundamental principle of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which this Government are a signatory.

The evidence also shows that schools themselves share the views expressed by noble Lords today on this issue. We know that the vast majority of schools involve their pupils in a variety of different ways. Over 95 per cent of schools already have a school council. Pupils of all ages can serve as associate members of governing bodies, which means that they can attend and speak at governing body meetings. Governing bodies have the power to invite pupils of any age to attend and contribute to governing body meetings. That is extremely important.

I share some of the reservations expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, as to the specific amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, in that it would add to our current arrangements a requirement on all governing bodies of all maintained schools to have an unspecified number of student governors. The amendment would apply to the governing bodies of all maintained schools, including nursery schools. It would force all governing bodies to change their instrument of governance and appoint pupil governors, even if they already had effective arrangements for pupil participation in decision-making.

I am keen to continue to talk to the noble Baroness about these issues and about governance more generally, as I think she and I have a shared interest in this issue. However, as she might expect from the conversations we have had on governance, she will know that placing this additional prescription on the constitution of governing bodies runs counter to the Government’s broader policy on school governance, where we are trying to give governing bodies more freedom to recruit governors based on skills and to minimise prescription around the proportions of governors required from different categories.

I have reflected on the points that were made in Committee and again today, but I continue to believe that there are sufficient ways for governing bodies to take account of pupil views. I do not think it would be right to place a mandatory requirement on all maintained schools—including primary schools—to appoint pupil governors. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, mentioned the Education and Skills Act provisions on pupil consultation. There is a requirement on schools to have regard to guidance on pupil consultation, an issue which my noble friend Lady Walmsley raised. We will be talking about that further in response to her Oral Question.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, knows that I am always ready to talk to her about governance, and I am happy to talk further about this issue. While I agree with her on the importance of involving pupils and the benefits this can bring, I cannot support this specific amendment. I would therefore ask her to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all those who said a few words, some in support and some not in support of my amendment. I am particularly grateful to the Minister because he has been extremely helpful in many respects as far as the role of governors is concerned. Wearing my NGA hat—I should perhaps have said earlier that I am president of that organisation—I know that it, too, is very grateful for the value that he and the Government place on the important role of governors.

I am obviously sorry that the Minister cannot move quite as far as I would like to move. However, I shall continue to hope that I shall live long enough to see my particular wish come true. With that, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.

Education Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I have listened to the whole debate, particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley. She completely impressed us all and has certainly convinced me. Until now I wavered a little on this point. It does not make sense for Ofsted not to be involved in the ideal against which other schools and schools in the future should be measured. I hope that the Minister, after the few extra minutes he has been given to breathe by virtue of the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Quirk, will be able to rethink a little and, above all, get the other place to read what the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, for her career advice, which I take in good part. I am sure that it was meant in good part. If she sees the humps developing on my back as I respond, she will understand that, camel-like, I must bear the course—I misquote Shakespeare.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, set out the main points, and I will not speak at length because the substantive response in terms of what the Government are trying to do relates to the principle of proportionality upon which this issue is based. In response to the concerns raised in Committee, we went back, thought again and strengthened the safeguards that have been put in place. However, I recognise that they are not to the satisfaction of all noble Lords.

The noble Lord began with two points. His first concern was to ensure that there was no intention to exempt free schools or academies en bloc. There are two answers to that. The first, which he acknowledged, is that we have made changes so that that could not happen other than through an affirmative order. However, that is not the intention of the Government. I have no desire to exempt all free schools and academies from inspection. That comes back to the point made by the noble Lord on Monday, which he half remembered. He talked about there being three principles—fair funding, fair access and fair inspection. I reiterate my agreement with that because the approach to inspection should be the same for any type of school. However, we would argue that an outstanding academy or mainstream school obviously should be treated in the same way. I would not want there to be exemptions for any types of school.

The noble Lord said that in the past—perhaps speaking from his own experience—Ministers may have looked too favourably on academies because they did not want those schools to be seen to fail because they were seeking to take forward a policy direction. That is not my wish at all. One of the things that we are doing is seeking to increase the pressure on underperforming academies to make sure that we apply that approach to them just as we would to any other school.

The noble Lord asked in passing whether our proposal is driven by money. The matter was raised previously so I shall respond to it. It is a perfectly fair question and the answer is that it is driven by the desire to have a more proportionate approach to inspection and regulation. Money is not the driver.

A point raised a number of times concerned how one picks up best practice. I accept that that is a good and fair question and it was put by the noble Lord, Lord Quirk. Clearly, a flow of new outstanding schools will be coming through routine inspection every year, but the thematic reviews and surveys will also pick up best practice. However—this relates to the point raised by my noble friend Lord Lucas—it is also the case that we are keen to encourage more and more the professional sharing of good practice, and it is spreading. I do not think one needs to argue that an inspection which currently takes place once every five years is the only way to deliver the professional sharing of good practice.

I take the point raised by my noble friend Lord Lucas about the process being faster acting. The current regime leaves five years between inspections, but the combination of the triggers which will kick in earlier will mean that, if there are problems, they will be picked up faster under our new system than under the current one.

In response to the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, I do not think that a school would have the certainty of there being no inspection. The much tougher triggers will mean that there will never be that certainty because there are all sorts of way in which an inspection can be brought forward.

I understand the position taken by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes of Stretford and Lady Morris of Yardley, who argued their case forcefully and clearly. The difference between us is not about the importance of inspection, the fact that we think parents should have information or that we want to go soft on inspection; at heart, it is that we think it is time to develop the existing approach to proportionate inspection and take it one stage further.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, first, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, in preferring to have well-being specifically in the Bill in addition to achievement. That would be a much more balanced and appropriate way to look at the whole task of Ofsted and what we are looking for in the Bill. Indeed, it might help some of the other contributions made to this debate in terms of the well-being of a child, which would include their linguistic ability and development. But if the noble Baroness is convinced by the Minister’s letter, who am I to dispute that?

My main reason for contributing is to say that I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, will push Amendment 78 on community cohesion. For many of the reasons put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, this seems to be a key to the whole life and work of our schools, which should be in any Ofsted inspection. One of my tasks which I find most fulfilling and of most value is to be the vice-chair of Leeds City Council’s safer and stronger communities board, which seeks to provide community cohesion over the whole life of the city. A key to that work is the contribution made by schools to community cohesion across Leeds. If we are to continue to affirm and assert the need for social cohesion within our country, it is crucial for schools to be included. People from different backgrounds with different abilities and perspectives need to work together in order to have a cohesive society.

I recognise the point that we must not give Ofsted too many individual tasks to pursue. But this is the only one of those tasks which looks beyond the school gates. It is vital that schools do that. I very much hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, will press her amendment. I perhaps even hope that the Government might accept it as a crucial part of how schools should operate within our culture and society.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, all the proposed amendments are more than worthy of acceptance, whether that is in the Bill, by us all or in guidance to schools and communities. They clearly set the sort of society that we are trying to achieve; that is, the big society, community involvement, or whatever one likes to call it. I agree entirely with the points made by my noble friend Lady Flather in speaking to her amendment. Of them all, it perhaps sums up the whole feeling that the school, and the arrangements of the school in what it sets out to achieve for the children, also involves the community, which is a sort of two-way process.

I should like to make one further point at this stage. When we look at all these additional changes and responsibilities that schools will have to cope with as a result of this Bill when it becomes law, one area that perhaps gets less attention is the role of the school governors. They are being asked to play an increasingly important role—I declare my interest as president of the NGA—on well-being and other issues. Whatever the issues are, these are added responsibilities. If I were to add anything, I would include something about the importance of not just management of the school but the whole way in which it operates under its governors. With that, I hope that we will get a favourable response from the Minister and perhaps even an acceptance of something of what has been said to go in the Bill itself. We shall have to wait and see.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I very much hope that my noble friend will pay attention to the speeches he has heard on Amendment 78. I well remember the debates that led up to and followed the inspired amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, which got us out of some emotional difficulties. It expressed all our intentions well. This Government realise that measuring schools and setting them objectives has an effect on schools, which is why they introduced the EBacc, which is having an effect. Ofsted looks at community cohesion not because we expect Ofsted to go galumphing all over this territory but so that schools know that attention is being paid to whether they do it or not, and that, therefore, it will come within the list of things that they have to do. The noble Lord, Lord Quirk, made some pretty good fun of the provisions in the Bill about social, moral and cultural development, as if there was a way of measuring these things or a tape measure that could be run over them. But having that in the Bill means schools know that this is something they have to do and that, therefore, they have to give time to it and spend money on it. If schools are not given any mind in these sorts of areas, they will start not doing it in the way that they have been not doing foreign languages. Hence, the need to row back on that with some vigour, which I am delighted my right honourable friend is doing. These things matter and these particular words matter. The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, has my total support. I very much hope that in the Minister’s consideration of what might be done to improve this Bill, she will focus on those two words.

On the other amendments in the group, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, is aiming at. It seems to me that we are moving children between two regimes—that of the social services and that of the school, or the family and the school, whichever may apply. In terms of understanding what is going right and what is going wrong, it is important to make a measurement at the point when a child moves from one to the other so that we know whether the problems of literacy are being generated in the community or though a lack of attention in the school. I am not saying that this is the right place to put it but if we are doing value-added in a school, we should take an initial measure at the beginning and not two years in. A lot of value-added goes on in those two years in a good school. We should be doing that. I very much support the spirit of the amendment.

I also support my noble friend Lady Walmsley in her wish to see well-being included. The Prime Minister has been right to support that as a concept of wide application and it really should find its way into something as central as education. I look forward to the speech of my noble friend the Minister.