Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Main Page: Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour - Life peer)Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 28, I wish to speak also to Amendments 29, 30, 71, 72, 80, 82 and 83. It may also assist the House if I comment on opposition Amendments 31, 32, 34 and 67.
These amendments are all about devolving functions. Underpinning the government amendments in this group is consideration we have given to issues raised in Committee about devolving health functions and devolution not only in cities but in counties where there may not be combined authorities, such as Cornwall.
Government Amendments 28, 29, 30, 80 and 82 relate to discussions we have had on devolving health matters and would provide greater flexibility over how functions can be exercised jointly by a public authority and combined authority. They are intended to provide assurance that any future devolution arrangements will continue to uphold existing accountabilities and national standards for the NHS. This was a core principle set out in the memorandum of understanding concerning health and social care functions agreed with Greater Manchester in February.
I have listened carefully to the points made by noble Lords, particularly the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Hunt, both during Committee and Second Reading, and during the very useful meeting we had last week. I am bringing forward these amendments and providing further assurances today, which I hope will go at least some way to meeting the concerns that noble Lords have.
Clause 6 enables the Secretary of State by order to confer on a combined authority functions held by a public authority. Such functions could be exercisable by the combined authority instead of the public authority, or the functions could be exercisable concurrently by each authority.
Amendment 28 enables the Secretary of State to provide for the functions concerned to be exercisable by the combined authority or public authority, subject to specified conditions or limitations. This would enable conditions to be attached to any conferral of powers from a public authority to a combined authority. This could, for example, enable a conferral of health powers on a combined authority to be accompanied by a condition that the combined authority must also meet the current statutory duties held variously by the Secretary of State for Health, NHS England and clinical commissioning groups, thereby ensuring continuation of current NHS accountabilities and standards. So, for example, the Secretary of State could transfer powers attaching the duty to seek continuous improvement in the quality of services, reduce health inequalities, promote the NHS constitution, seek to achieve the objectives in the NHS mandate or act consistently with those objectives. Other conditions might be attached that were specific to the two authorities’ arrangements for working together.
Amendments 29 and 30 provide greater flexibility to ensure that combined authorities and public authorities can work effectively together. They enable Ministers to specify that functions are to be exercised by the public authority and combined authority working jointly, in addition to the powers to require that functions are exercised concurrently or are fully transferred to the combined authority. Amendments 80 and 82 are minor changes which support these amendments by enabling the Secretary of State to amend or modify legislation; for example, the National Health Service Act 2006 might need some amendments or modifications in relation to the particular combined authority to which functions were being transferred. These amendments allow greater flexibility for devolved arrangements to be specified according to local context and the function concerned, and would give greater assurance that the combined authority or council would have to work co-operatively in the exercise of functions.
I understand that Amendment 31 is also prompted by health considerations. It seeks to limit Clause 6 to exclude public authority functions,
“of a regulatory or supervisory nature”,
from being conferred on a combined authority. I understand the intent behind this amendment, having discussed it with noble Lords last week and again now, and I agree that a combined authority should not be able to act as the regulator or supervisor of functions that it is responsible for exercising. Indeed, I can see a case for excluding from the scope of Clause 6 the functions of any national regulatory or supervisory body overseeing the exercise of functions by public authorities. Such an exclusion would put it beyond any doubt that the regulator responsibilities of, say, Monitor and the Care Quality Commission could not be devolved to combined authorities. Moreover, if a combined authority is provided, by order, health functions, perhaps to be exercised jointly with the local clinical commissioning groups, the combined authority should not also be conferred with the functions of the clinical commissioning groups’ regulators.
As I have already indicated, I can assure noble Lords that we are absolutely committed to upholding existing accountabilities and national standards; for example, for the NHS. This core principle was set out in the health and social care memorandum of understanding with Greater Manchester. As I have said in earlier debates, the Government are committed to the view that health and social care services in any area, whatever devolution arrangements are entered into, must remain firmly part of the NHS and social care system; that all existing accountabilities and national standards for health, social care and public health services will still apply; and that the position of NHS services in the area in relation to the NHS constitution and mandate cannot change. The exclusions sought by Amendment 31 could be made by excluding them from the set of functions which are transferred and, if it were necessary, the Secretary of State’s power to attach conditions or impose limitations could be used, as provided for in Amendment 28. However, I am prepared to consider further and reflect on today’s discussion and, if we consider it appropriate, for the Government to return to these issues at Third Reading.
Government Amendments 71, 72 and 83 will enable the Secretary of State to confer functions of a public authority on local authorities as well as combined authorities. These amendments are ensuring that we have the powers we may need to devolve powers in county areas where there may not be a combined authority. In previous stages of the Bill, concerns have been raised that the Bill focuses on devolution to those large cities with combined authorities, and questions have been asked about how the Bill’s provisions apply in non-metropolitan areas, where perhaps there may not be combined authorities.
As I have explained on more than one occasion, we are very clear that devolution applies equally across all parts of England—cities, counties and towns—and that we are looking to do bespoke deals with all areas that want them. We are also ready to have conversations with any area about the powers and budgets it wants devolved to it and the governance arrangements it proposes to support those powers. This amendment is to put it beyond doubt that there is a level playing field for all areas, including areas where there is no combined authority. That we are serious about this is unequivocally demonstrated by the Chancellor’s announcement in the Budget:
“The government intends to support towns and counties to play their part in growing the economy, offering them the opportunity to agree devolution deals, and providing local people with the levers they need to boost growth. The government is working with towns and counties to make these deals happen and is making good progress towards a deal with Cornwall”.
Clause 6 enables the Secretary of State to confer functions of a public authority on to a combined authority, subject to appropriate consent and process. Amendments 71 and 72 replicate these powers for application to local authorities to enable the Secretary of State to confer functions of a public authority on to a county or district council. Amendment 83 makes some minor amendments to tidy up Section 15 of the Localism Act accordingly. These amendments will enable, for example, devolution deals to be made with individual local authorities such as Cornwall, as I have mentioned, in the same way as for a combined authority.
Functions of a public authority could be conferred on a local authority to be exercised individually by the local authority, concurrently with the public authority or jointly with the public authority. All these powers can be transferred with limitations and conditions, as for the transfer of powers from a public authority to a combined authority. As with combined authorities, such a conferral of power can be made only with consent from the local authority and if the Secretary of State considers that doing so would be likely to improve the exercise of statutory functions in the local authority area. Such a conferral of power would also need approval from each House of Parliament and to support Parliament’s consideration, the Secretary of State would lay a report before it setting out the reasoning for the proposed conferral of powers. I hope that noble Lords will agree that these amendments respond to their earlier questions about what the Government are offering to non-metropolitan areas.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
We are getting major amendments, which are very welcome, at Report rather than in the Bill. It is very hard to find out what is going on because being on Report confines the sort of discussion which we would normally have in Committee. I am grateful for the Minister’s tolerance. She made the point about county functions. Is she saying that under Amendment 71, in conjunction with Amendment 83, the functions of a public authority may be conferred on any single district authority, not just on combined authorities and counties? I was not sure.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I was saying that it applies to any local authority.
Amendment 32 would require the Secretary of State to consult for 60 days before he could lay a draft order before Parliament which would confer powers of a public authority on a combined authority. I am clear that this amendment is unnecessary and risks adding significant delay to the implementation of devolution deals agreed between the Government and the areas concerned. That we cannot countenance delay is not primarily because we are seeking some bureaucratic neatness or even public administration—desirable as those aims are—but because implementing those deals is critical to enabling areas to address the serious economic challenges that the country faces, including the great challenge on productivity.
As the Chancellor made clear in his Budget, addressing this challenge is key to delivering the financial security that families seek when living standards rise. We cannot delay this. Noble Lords have heard me say a number of times that the Government are open to discussing devolution proposals from all places, and that our approach is for areas to come forward with proposals that address their specific issues and opportunities. These are deals between the Government and civic leaders who have been elected by, and are democratically accountable to, those living in the area.
Amendment 33, which is in my name and which we will be discussing shortly, requires the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament a report whenever he lays an order which supports such a transfer of power, to provide further detailed information about the deal and conferral of powers as proposed in the draft order. This report is designed to enhance the transparency of such deals and support parliamentary scrutiny.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)
My Lords, as explained, Amendments 28 to 30 were basically driven by the health agenda. The facility for joint working arrangements, the transfer of functions subject to conditions or limitations, and providing for functions to be undertaken by the public authority on a continuing basis together with joint working seemed to us to be entirely reasonable. On the fundamental debate about the NHS we do not believe that this goes far enough, but that issue will be returned to on Wednesday.
Amendment 34, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, is another attempt at clarity on the list of functions that the Government are prepared to consider as available for devolving under the provisions of the Act. We anticipated the answer that we got, and I will not prolong that at this time of night. I just ask: what is so wrong with some form of prospectus that would help local authorities to understand the criteria applied and the capacity that they may build? An annual report would help. I do not fully understand the Government’s reticence on this matter. My noble friend Lord Hunt has dealt with Amendments 31 and 32, and we look forward to the further consideration on Amendment 31.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Low, that we appreciate the amendment that has just been moved. There is a great need in this area; we know that the social welfare advice system has been all but decimated—advice around benefits, debts, employment and housing—and it is a very difficult time. The noble Lord should be congratulated on the work that he did and the commission that he chaired. He is right on the fundamental point that combined authorities should be a forum within which a strategic framework could be put together to deal with these very issues. I take the Minister’s point that it is not the process of this Bill to prescribe that for each individual authority or the way that they should do it, but I hope that she will accept that it would be enabled by this process—indeed, it is quite an appropriate matter for a combined authority to address.
Amendments 71 and 72, as we have heard, would enable the transfer of public authority functions to certain individual local authorities. To reiterate a question asked by my noble friend, this would apply to any sort of authority—a district, county, unitary or single authority—and potentially the same type of powers that would be available more generally. It is an important change, which is welcomed, although we look forward to the DPRRC’s report when it comes out tomorrow. The change is achieved by the Secretary of State making regulations if it is considered that the exercise of statutory functions will be improved. As we have heard, they have to have the consent of the relevant local authority.
We acknowledge that the affirmative procedure will operate, and the order will be accompanied by a more detailed report, which we will debate in a moment. However, the underlying process is unclear—perhaps we will get some clarity from the report tomorrow. It does not seem to require any starting assessment by the local authority and the proposal then being made to the Secretary of State; that seems to have disappeared from the process. In practice that may end up as an iterative process, but if there is no right for the individual local authorities to make proposals to the Secretary of State for consideration which merits some response, what assurance do we have that this is an inclusive process? It starts from the other end of the process to the existing Section 109, so what creates an effective right for individual authorities with a case to be able to make that case and to be heard? I was anticipating an amendment from my noble friend Lady Hollis in this group but perhaps it will come in a subsequent one.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I apologise to my noble friend, but as my amendment was on the very different issue of council tax bands and I thought it was worth trying to explore that in greater detail, fairly late today I asked for it to be disaggregated. Therefore noble Lords will find that on the latest list of amendments Amendment 75A is at the very end, and it will be the last amendment to be debated on Wednesday. The noble Lord may have had an earlier set of groupings in which it was included; I pulled it out after the draft groupings had come out.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am grateful to my noble friend for that clarification. I will just say to the Government that where my noble friend leads, Governments eventually catch up.
Lord Shipley (LD)
My Lords, I do not wish to repeat anything that has been said on Amendments 31 and 32, because I am very happy with the debate we have had so far. I will draw the Minister’s attention to the very helpful words of the noble Lord, Lord Low, on Amendment 67, and will then take that and compare it to Amendment 34 and the list of public functions, which the Labour Party has identified as needed, and which I support. It starts to matter. We had a brief discussion in Committee around careers services and their role as regards the devolution of skills budgeting—what the exact responsibility of combined authorities would be as regards careers services. All that matters because it is not clear to all the organisations outside your Lordships’ House exactly what is in scope. Therefore the production of that list called for by Amendment 34 seems very important, because the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Low, were extremely important and appropriate.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, I support my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and agree with their comments. Although I am delighted by the flexibility and the responsiveness of the Minister, I am now unclear as to why an individual local authority should necessarily join other authorities to form a combined area if it could equally well receive powers. Obviously that would be a matter for negotiation. For example, it would be absurd to confine transport to one area, but for another power associated with economic development you might not necessarily need a combined authority to do so; you just need additional powers to be able to do X, Y or Z.
Therefore, given that at the lowest level we now have single local authorities, then combined authorities and, floating somewhere above them, metro authorities with metro mayors, which will be required, it would be very helpful if the Minister could give us some indication—not necessarily tonight, but as soon as possible—of what the Secretary of State might have in mind to be appropriately delegated to different tiers of authority, particularly for those of us who are in two-tier shire authorities. In that way, a lot of wasted effort will not be put into submissions that will go nowhere. We understand unitary authorities in metropolitan areas very clearly, but where there are district councils and county councils, and the district councils are often rural and urban and have different political views and attitudes towards economic growth, it will be quite complicated to find a way through to maximise our common agenda of economic growth for the prosperity of us all. Therefore anything the Minister can do to help clarify the routes we travel on this will be very welcome.
Lord Heseltine (Con)
My Lords, the more I have listened to the debate on Amendment 34, the more worried I have become about many of the interventions from the Benches opposite. Devolution is not something that government departments are longing to do. They are not sitting there asking, “How can we give up power? How can we transfer this back from where we have taken it?”. There is controversy between departments within government. It is a personal controversy and a power structure controversy. If we were to agree to this line of thinking, we would force the Government to find minimalist compromises within the existing structure. Why should the Government go further within the controversy? Why not simply give the least? That would broadly satisfy the consensus within the power structure of Whitehall.
The argument that I have used in my personal capacity with local authorities is: be adventurous. I have asked: do you have the capacity to see how to do something bigger, better and more imaginative than you will ever get if it is imposed on you from central government? Some authorities have that capacity. Manchester has been quoted many times but there are other examples—the noble Lord, Lord Low, in an interesting intervention talked about what has happened in Sheffield. However, in order to galvanise the momentum of local talent based on local strengths, you need men and women who can envisage how to do things better than will ever be achieved by what is imposed on them by the central machine. That is why Amendment 34 is at the heart of the worst way of dealing with things.
We want local people to rise up in indignation with their ideas, to argue for them and to put forward proposals which in many parts of government will not be acceptable so that a debate is forced on government. Then, those who believe in the devolution argument will, in the normal processes of government, have the chance to win the concessions that can meet the aspirations that are put forward. However, clamping down with prescriptive lists divided into tiers of local government and into functions, mirroring the Whitehall structure, is the way to stop devolution in its tracks.