Pension Schemes Bill

Baroness Hollis of Heigham Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

No, I do not think that that is the intention. We believe, and are confident, that everybody will have been trained to a level at which they can give appropriate advice. It would be completely impractical and unnecessary to proceed as the noble Lord suggests. I can assure him that the Treasury is working extremely closely and collaboratively with the guidance bodies to design the service and ensure that we are ready for April. Are we confident that we will be? Yes, we are.

The noble Lord asked a number of other questions. Could I confirm that we expect a typical advice session to last 45 minutes? Yes, we can. He asked whether people would be able to go back and get a second bite of the cherry. We have already said that that will be possible, although we hope that if people do not have all the guidance they need, directing them to the website will deal with a lot of second-order issues.

The noble Lord outlined his understanding of the complaints procedure. I believe that the way he outlined it is correct. If not, I will write to him—I need to read it first.

The noble Lord also asked about operating hours, which are still being finalised.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)]

Would the Minister mind expanding a little on this? He, or certainly his colleagues, will know that as a result of cuts by the MoJ, CABs have lost 60% of their funding that has been going into legal aid. To my knowledge, this means that CABs have substantially restricted their hours, they are often unavailable on the telephone and they are offering a very reduced and spartan service, particularly in rural areas, where, at the same time, individuals cannot access through broadband any of the websites that TPAS and so on may go on to produce. Is the Minister saying that there will be enough funding, over and beyond paying the CAB advisers £18,000 a year or whatever after their training, to keep CABs open at full hours, rather than simply to mount the skeleton service that is all they can afford at the moment, thanks to the cuts by his colleague, the right honourable Chris Grayling?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I am saying that we will designate a very significant number of CAB offices to provide this service, and the funding that we will provide will allow them to meet this additional requirement without having to draw on any of their existing funds. We are not planning to operate this service through every CAB, so I cannot say how it will affect any particular one. However, the key principle under which we are operating is that the CABs which participate in giving this advice will have the funding to do it without drawing on any of their other resources.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Is the Minister saying therefore that the CABs will be open all the hours necessary for pensions advice, but will still be unavailable to help people who are at risk of losing their home because they have housing benefit problems?

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Moved by

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

21: Schedule 3, page 70, line 24, at end insert—
“( ) must ensure that guidance includes the consequences of pensions flexibility on eligibility for income-related benefits and on assessment for care and support under section 17 of the Care Act 2014 (assessment of financial resources).”

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, I would like to move Amendment 21 in the names of my noble friends Lord Bradley and Lord McAvoy and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, who apologises for having to leave early. I hope, as this is a modest amendment asking for guidance, that the Government will accept it. I really do. There are huge issues to be untangled.

The Government are proposing that, at 55, people should have full access to their DC—defined contribution —pots, without, I believe, fully considering how this affects entitlement to means-tested, income-related benefits, IRBs, as well as payment for social care. Clearly, if a warehouseman of 56, earning perhaps £20,000 per year and living in private rented accommodation with a DC pot of £25,000, in future extracts £8,000 of it to buy a new car, that £8,000 will count as extra income in that year. Some of it will be taxable and it will affect any income-related benefits he may have, such as housing benefit. Obviously, guidance is absolutely essential, so that people with modest pots understand this. Taking some capital from their DC pot adds to their income—no question. It can both be taxed and affect any benefits.

So far, so simple—sort of. But what if our warehouseman can access the £25,000 in his pension pot but chooses not to do so, so that it sits there as capital? The social security capital rules of people of working age are clear: you are allowed £6,000 of savings without affecting your income-related benefits; from £6,000 to £16,000 your savings are assumed to generate an additional income of £1 for every £250 of capital per week; more than £16,000, you lose entitlement to means-tested benefits altogether. If, therefore, our warehouseman has savings, say, in an ISA worth £25,000, he has to spend down £10,000 of that to become eligible, say, for some housing benefit.

The question then is: what counts as accessible capital or savings such that they affect working-age benefits? Not your home—I will not raise issues of equity release here—nor an inaccessible pension pot; but savings accounts, unit trusts, stocks and shares, and ISAs do count, sensibly, so that one cannot shelter large savings, say of £100,000, while claiming taxpayer-funded benefits. The rules are there for a purpose. If you deliberately deprive yourself of capital—perhaps buying that Lamborghini—in order to claim housing benefit, you are treated as though that capital is still available to you.

However, from April you can access your DC money purchase pot at 55 in exactly the same way as you can access your ISA. Both pensions and ISAs are tax privileged. From 55, the only difference will be that with pensions you get tax relief when putting money in, and with ISAs when taking money out. Growth in either a pension or an ISA pot is tax-privileged in exactly the same way.

We know, however, that £25,000 in an ISA pot debars you from IRBs. What will happen now to a £25,000 pension pot equally accessible at 55? Under the existing rules on social security, having such a pot should stop you claiming IRBs until you have spent it down to below £16,000. Our warehouseman, who after 20 years with the same firm injured his back at 53, gets ESA and housing benefit, but at 55, because he can access his DC pot of £25,000, exactly like ISAs, he should lose his benefit—until, exactly like ISAs, he has spent it down to £15,000, whether or not he actually takes money out of the pot.

However, the Government do not like that; it rather spoils the pensions party. So they seek—irrationally, in my view—to treat pensions and ISAs differently, because, as the letter to me of 22 January from the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, of which other noble Lords have also received copies, states:

“The key difference between the classification of pensions and ISAs rests on the tax treatment. Pensions have never been taxed, and so are effectively deferred income which has yet to be taken. As the primary purpose of pensions is for retirement, this is not assumed to generate an income until pension credit age. ISAs on the other hand are treated as capital rather than income, because they have been saved for out of already-taxed income. Although ISAs and pensions may appear more similar in the light of flexibility, they remain fundamentally distinct”.

But they do not; the argument is patently absurd. The key difference between pensions and ISAs in the past has not been their tax treatment, which is effectively identical if you are a basic rate taxpayer, both in work and in retirement, with the same tax relief on the way in and on the way out. That makes no difference at all, despite the letter from the Minister. The key difference has always been that ISAs are accessible and pensions are not. Because ISAs were accessible, they counted—rightly, in my view—against income-related benefits. Because pensions have not been accessible but were ring-fenced for retirement, they rightly did not count against income-related benefits.

The Minister says that the primary purpose of pensions, and therefore the reason for treating them differently from ISAs between 55 and 65, is that they are for retirement. That is true now, but it will not be after April 2015. That DC pot of £25,000 can be used at 55 for anything—buying a car, helping a daughter with university fees or helping a son with a mortgage deposit—just like ISAs. The pension pot can be wiped out by 65 even before you hit retirement—just like ISAs. Equally, the pension pot and the ISA pot made by choice both remain untouched until 65—just like ISAs. There is no difference. To argue that they have a different purpose because “pensions are for retirement” is whistling in the wind. DC pensions need no longer be for retirement at all; they are just like ISAs. Much of the research so far suggests that some people will treat them in practice exactly like ISAs and use them for whatever they see fit. For the Government to treat them differently makes a mockery of fair and consistent rules in social security.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I concentrate on the amendment. First, the Government believe it is right that the content of the guidance session is set out in FCA standards which are unfettered by a restrictive legislative framework.

The FCA consulted on these standards last year and published its responding policy statement, including a near-final version of the guidance standards, in November last year.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord quite so quickly, but the amendment was not meant to refer solely and exclusively to face-to-face guidance that may or may not be offered by the CABs or TPAS. What I am talking about is a government leaflet, the content of which should also be on a website, explaining in very plain English exactly what all these interactions mean, and therefore allowing people to reflect on those before they then go off to the CABs to decide what is the best thing for them.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I remind the noble Baroness that there will be three strands of guidance: face-to-face guidance; telephone guidance; and information on the Treasury website. Perhaps we will produce a leaflet, but we hope that much of the detail of the background to the way in which the system will work will be on that website.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

I am sorry to press this, and the noble Lord is being very generous in allowing me to intervene again. However, after following this Bill through, I do not know how these provisions will interact. I do not know whether it is okay to recycle your ISAs into pensions and carry on claiming full income-related benefits. This is not about guidance from the CABs. Unless the CABs know whether you are allowed to recycle your ISAs into pensions, how the hell can they give anybody any advice?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I will come to that. I shall deal with the amendment first because it raises an important point in itself before we get to some of the broader issues.

As I say, the FCA consulted on the guidance standards last year, and published its policy statement in November. The near-final FCA standards make certain specific requirements with regard to both collecting relevant information and providing certain types of information. Ensuring that consumers consider factors which are pertinent to their retirement decision, as relevant to them, is an important part of that which the standards capture. The standards require that, according to consumer needs, people are encouraged to provide relevant information about their financial and personal circumstances and their objectives to ensure that they can get maximum value from their guidance experience. In terms of financial information, this might include pension pots or benefits, other sources of wealth or income, including where the individual has a spouse or partner, tax status and debt. In terms of personal circumstances, this might include whether an individual has dependants, or a spouse or partner, and the state of their health and potential long-term care needs. In terms of objectives, this might include the consumer’s plan for retirement, so they can identify their income needs.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, spoke to this issue in Committee and asked about the effects of the new flexibilities on eligibility for income-contingent benefits and social care. That has been the burden of other speeches today. This is an extremely important issue and one to which the Government have given, and continue to give, detailed consideration. It is important that the treatment of such products is clear for claimants and for decision-makers, as noble Lords have pointed out. On guiding principles, the Government want to ensure that someone’s decision to use a flexible pension product does not significantly impact on how their means are assessed for social security purposes or social care charging purposes.

Our intention is for the principles of the current rules to remain in place after April this year. At the last Autumn Statement we announced a change to the notional income rules for benefits from April 2015, so that 100%—rather than 150% as now—of the income that an equivalent annuity would offer is taken into account. This will therefore be a more generous calculation than under the previous rules. Guidance will be tailored to an individual’s circumstances and give consideration to issues such as welfare, the need for and future likelihood of social care, and levels of savings and debt. However, where it is clear that consumers need specialist help, they will be directed to relevant specialist guidance and information as appropriate. In the case of social care needs, the guidance service will direct people to their local authority, which, under the Care Act, is obligated to direct them to sources of information and advice.

Benefits entitlement will be one issue for individuals to consider in making their choices, but it is only one of several important factors, such as tax consequences and personal circumstances. As we discussed on tax, there is a special requirement on pension providers to discuss with customers the potential tax implications of the course that they might follow. I can also reassure the House that the guidance service will ensure that consumers also consider relevant issues related to pension decisions, such as state pensions, debts, and other assets, wealth and income. The Government are committed to ensuring that individuals are equipped and empowered to make informed decisions on how to use their pension savings and to take account of these wider circumstances.

On the amendment, the guidance will include benefits. The problem that the noble Baronesses so eloquently described, particular concerning ISAs, is that there are a number of extremely detailed interactions between the savings options and the benefits and tax consequences that will need to be dealt with as part of the guidance. The concern expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, which I completely understand, is that the Treasury and DWP will not get their act together and are not up to the job of doing this. Unsurprisingly, I am significantly more confident than she is. She has begun a correspondence with the DWP on the ISA issue; an e-mail from her to the department is awaiting a response. I can give her an assurance that she will get a detailed response in writing to the questions she has raised between now and Third Reading.

I am not seeking in any way to diminish the fact that potential areas of confusion might arise in particular cases. The challenge that we have accepted, and hope that we can rise to, is to ensure that the guidance and the people providing it will be able to guide people through some of these thickets. If it were not complicated, we would not need to go to such lengths to set up a guidance system in the first place. We are confident that we will deal with these issues, and that people, as they take up guidance, will get the information they require to enable them to make informed choices.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, the Minister’s answer—this is of course not personal; he is dependent on the briefing and the current state of the consideration in the two departments—frankly has appalled me. It is shocking. We are eight weeks away and apparently the two departments have not yet worked out the different rules for the treatment of ISAs and pensions. Are you allowed to cycle your ISAs into pensions to protect them but see the benefit bill go up? Answer: we know not.

We seem to have different rules for social care for those below 65 and above 65—above 65 you will pay, but below 65 you need not. A capital asset is essentially your pension. Is that right? We do not know. We do not know whether we will have fairness between people of a generation—those aged from 55 to 65—or whether we will have intergenerational fairness between those below 65 and those above it.

This is not about guidance; it is nothing to do with guidance at this stage. It is about getting the darned policy right. The policy has not been established. On all the difficult issues, the Government have said, “Have your choice and don’t worry about the small detail”. I am sorry but something like 15 million people are out there who in one way or another will be getting income-related benefits or state pension who need to know. We are eight weeks away and the Government, in the Minister’s words, say these issues are under “detailed consideration”.

This is awful. I have never seen anything of such significant importance to individuals in all my time—20-odd years in social security—or of such sizeable financial implications for taxpayers. We are eight weeks away and we have no clarity of policy that could therefore inform guidance. Writing guidance down and sending it off to CAB and TPAS is easy. What matters is getting the policy straight, and as far as I hear from the Minister tonight the Government have not even begun to do that. It is frankly appalling. I do not blame him. He is obviously a messenger—if I may use that word impertinently—from the DWP and is trying to put the best case he can, but this is shocking. I am sorry that unless he can tell us the policy answers to the questions raised by my noble friends and me tonight this has to be further explored at Third Reading because, as he said, it is under “detailed consideration” and he cannot give answers now.

All that the Minister has so far are inconsistent and contradictory policies, whether they come from HMRC, social care or the DWP. Even though he has had plenty of notice, he has been unable to put those bits together into a jigsaw so that we can even begin to recognise the picture on the box. Eight weeks away! He must be mortified. I would be if I had come to the House with that brief. I hope that, as a result, he will stamp his foot, and we will see whether he is in a position to give clarity of policy, following which there may then possibly be clarity of guidance on Third Reading. If not, I strongly suggest that he postpones Third Reading until the Government have got their act together. In some anger, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 21 withdrawn.