Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Hollins Excerpts

Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest (Con)]

My Lords, the Mental Capacity Act 2005 assumes capacity until proved otherwise. However, many people with learning disabilities have neither the ability nor the capacity to make life-changing or even death-making decisions. Under the Bill, because they are chronologically adults, they are not permitted to have anybody with them when the subject of assisted suicide is raised. This is something I will be discussing later in Committee.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, I am glad to be able to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton. I declare my interests as a past president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and I have a parliamentary scholar, a psychiatry trainee who is appointed by the Royal College of Psychiatrists to work one day a week with me. I was a member of the post-legislative scrutiny committee on the Mental Capacity Act. I also founded and chair a visual literacy charity called Books Beyond Words, which is relevant in a way.

I was listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, speak about communication. It reminded me that 18% of the adult population in this country are functionally illiterate. This is really important when we think about making decisions of such importance. I have an amendment later proposing a different framework for assessing capacity, and I will obviously talk about that then, but I want to reflect on how the charity Beyond Words creates really difficult stories in pictures, without any words, to try to help people who struggle with words to understand and make decisions about such things as the care and the treatment that they might require. We currently have about 80 stories, all about the whole story that people can discuss with their peers, their healthcare professionals and their families, to help them to understand an issue, so that they will not be left out but will truly understand. It is very easy to think that somebody understands when you have explained something in words, in simple words, and that the person is compliant with it, but when you explain in pictures and enable the person to say what they have read in their own words, then you get an idea of whether they have understood.

I have been trying to think about how I would be able to create a story in pictures to explain this Bill. It would be several stories. It would take an awfully long time and an awful lot of work to be able to do it. I just wanted to respond to what the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, said; I thought it was very important.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, at the heart of this debate is the question of safety. It is very impressive to hear all the experience around the House and I know that people shared my experience when we took the Mental Capacity Act through the House in 2005. That Act had been years in the making. It had most profound and serious consideration in this House and, most unusually, it then had post-legislative scrutiny, where we went into every aspect of the Act. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, is quite right; there were many concerns raised about the practice and the absence of proper training, but no one, to my knowledge, challenged the definition of “mental capacity”, recognising the huge complexity of the term, the different circumstances in which it is implemented and people’s responses to it.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that we have a framework. Safety, I think, relies on and is expressed in the 20 years of practice in the way the Mental Capacity Act has been implemented and has benefitted so many. The assumption that there is mental capacity was in itself a huge and very important statement of a positive right in the law. The Bill before us is another statement of a positive right in the law, where there has not been one, and where so many people are desperate for us to find a route through this urgently.

We have the experience of that Act, the experience and expertise that this House put into reviewing that Act and confirming it with the recommended improvements, and the way the Act is understood—as my noble friend has said, not least by Chris Whitty—as well as its unknown interpretations. We have just heard about the complexity of defining “ability”. We already know of the huge, unframed and unknown complexity of creating another concept in law in the context of a Bill which, itself, has to be so carefully understood, implemented and communicated. We have to stick to what we know, even though it is still a work in progress, because it can still be improved. I hope it will be improved, in the course of this Bill. But it will be immensely dangerous, unless I hear a completely conclusive explanation as to why “ability” is better, if we were to depart from “capacity”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for saying what I wish I could have said myself. I will end, because we have had a very long debate on this. I just want to emphasise that from my experience of dealing with people, with families, versus what professionals think, it is a very different landscape when we compare those who do it every day with those who are faced with these difficult decisions for the very first time.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, I want to add a correction for the noble Lord, Lord Winston. The Royal College of Psychiatrists voted on the principle and it was a 50:50 split. The issue of this Bill is different. The college has taken the view, after a great deal of consultation, that it does not support the Bill.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, may I clarify that? I have just checked the information. My noble friend is correct in what she says, in that the support was 50:50, but the majority of respondents—64%—opposed expanding eligibility and 65% of them were not confident that consent could act as an adequate safeguard against unfree choices, such as those resulting from coercion or psychopathology.