Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Baroness Hoey and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Thursday 13th November 2025 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the discussion that we have had today on this group of amendments.

Let me start by turning to Amendment 189 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, which would require the Secretary of State to publish a review; it picks up on the points that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, just made. I can say, as I have said on previous days in Committee, that the Government will assess the implementation of the Act. This is completely consistent with best practice for primary legislation and for measures implemented by secondary legislation; the department will, of course, publish post-implementation reviews as appropriate.

Similarly, I turn to Amendments 195 and 196 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, which would require the Secretary of State to publish two reviews on the operational impact of the Bill. These would need to be published when the first group of individuals impacted by the smoke-free generation policy turned 21, then 25. I hope that the noble Earl will be pleased to hear that I am glad to agree with at least the principles behind the amendments. It is crucial that the Government review the impact of any legislation—we are keen to do so—but we need adequate time for policies to be implemented and for their impact to be realised before undertaking a review. As I have said, we have discussed this matter at some length previously.

I agree with noble Lords that we must monitor the effectiveness of our policies in reducing smoking rates and narrowing health inequalities. We have good data on smoking prevalence and differences between groups through sources such as the ONS annual population survey. Also, the department actively monitors uptake and outcomes of our smoking cessation programmes through NHS England data. This allows us to adapt and target our interventions. It also demonstrates how these services can contribute significantly to reducing smoking and addressing health inequalities. We will continue to monitor this data closely as measures are brought in by the Bill. I refer the noble Earl, Lord Russell, to HMRC estimates on the size of the illicit market. These estimates are made through tobacco duty gap estimates. We will continue to monitor data on the illicit market following the introduction of new policies in this Bill.

Amendment 216, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murray, would mean that large parts of the Bill, including age-of-sale and sponsorship provisions, would expire after five years. Also, to avoid the expiry of provisions, it would require the Secretary of State to consult on and lay new regulations each year, and that any regulations made under the Bill regarding packaging and displays would also expire after five years. We had a long debate on the very important matter of impact assessment earlier in Committee. I will not repeat the points that I made there.

However, as noble Lords have heard throughout this debate, smoking is the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill-health, costing our society some £21.3 billion every year in England alone. I also remind the Committee that this landmark legislation will be the biggest public health intervention in a generation. Our intention is to protect children from harm and break the cycle of addiction and disadvantage. The amendment would mean that large parts of the legislation would automatically cease after five years, and at one-year intervals following that. That could result in gaps in the law, creating legal uncertainty for businesses and consumers alike, and leading to harmful and highly addictive products becoming widely accessible.

Turning to Amendment 200, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, unfortunately I will disappoint her by repeating what I said at Second Reading—which she faithfully quoted—and which I have also said on previous days in Committee. The Government are content that measures in the Bill which apply to Northern Ireland are consistent with the obligations under the Windsor Framework. On the broader sovereignty points raised by the noble Baroness, the noble Lords, Lord Johnson and Lord Dodds, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I undertake to write to them about these important matters. However, we are concerned that this amendment would put us in breach of international law. Although I am repeating myself, it is important to say that the Government’s position remains that the Bill will apply across the United Kingdom. It has been developed in partnership with the Scottish and Welsh Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, also tabled Amendments 114B, 138A and 201A. While I am sure that I do not need to reiterate this to noble Lords present, I hope the Committee will forgive me for reminding us all about the harms of tobacco. In Northern Ireland, the Department of Health reports that tobacco claims around 2,100 deaths per year. That is why all four nations are committed to creating a smoke-free generation, so that anyone born on or after 1 January 2009 will never be legally sold tobacco products. As others have done earlier in the Committee, the noble Baroness raised the point about countries having different age restrictions in respect of sale. It is the case that all countries, not just those making up the United Kingdom, have different age restrictions. As I have outlined, our aim in the Bill is to protect future generations and, specifically, to have a complete change of culture in how smoking is regarded, while breaking that cycle of disadvantage and addiction.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Murray, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, again, I am aware that I am repeating myself, but it is important to do so. The Government consider that in drafting the Bill, they have considered all their domestic and international obligations. We know the tobacco industry has a history of arguing that EU law prevents the adoption of tobacco control measures. That is a very common tactic in disrupting tobacco control legislation.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for the point she made about legal opinions. Legal opinions indeed abound, and I understand why noble Lords are raising them, but it is not for me to engage in discussion about their merits or otherwise.

I can confirm that we expect the Bill to complete its passage within this parliamentary Session. There has been reference to the TRIS system, and I should emphasise that it is not an approval process, but I can confirm the point about the progress of the Bill. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not press their amendments.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister for her response. I am not sure that I got a reply on the legal aspects. This is not about how terrible smoking is in Northern Ireland; it is about whether we can have the Bill in Northern Ireland. The Minister, while being very gentle, attempted to answer some of the points about the legal situation. It is absolutely clear that we need an official government legal opinion. If we cannot even get the Attorney-General, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hermer, to respond to a letter and say something, what is the point?

I am really grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Murray, for reminding me that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hermer, has the position of Advocate-General for Northern Ireland. I looked up what his role is, and it says he is the chief legal adviser to the Government of the United Kingdom on Northern Ireland law, yet he seems not to want to talk about this. I genuinely find it amazing. I just hope that the Minister will take this issue back. I presume that she has seen the legal opinion by the noble John Larkin, KC—he should be noble but he is not. Has she read his legal opinion?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I have not taken a legal eye to it because I do not have a legal eye to do so. I would not wish to inflate my legal expertise in this regard; it is a matter for my colleagues to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I fully understand that the Minister does not want to do that. However, I would have thought that, if the Attorney-General is telling me that I have to refer to her on this, he would at least have sent her the document.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness. To reiterate what I said at the beginning, I am very pleased to write to noble Lords about the broader points being raised. I will of course attend to the points that the noble Baroness has raised.

Northern Ireland Dentists: Amalgam Fillings

Debate between Baroness Hoey and Baroness Merron

Monday 22nd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that dentists in Northern Ireland will still be able to use amalgam fillings when the EU ban their use from January 2025.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, on 19 July, as a result of constructive work between the UK Government and the EU, the EU published a notice that recognises the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland and the representations that have been made by the UK Government. It set specific arrangements in place for Northern Ireland, providing an additional 10 years to still use amalgam fillings, or until an earlier time is agreed by the Minamata convention, to which the UK is party.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer, which will be very much welcomed by dentists in Northern Ireland, but does she understand that there is a fundamental issue here? There are many more health and other regulations that will need that kind of begging of the EU to make a difference, because Northern Ireland is still under the Windsor Framework and the protocol. Will she commit to working to ensure that Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom, as a fully integrated part of the United Kingdom, is restored, and that this Government will do what they can to make that happen as soon as possible?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

As the noble Baroness is more than aware, the Windsor Framework is exactly about safeguarding Northern Ireland’s integral position in the union and the UK internal market. I can assure your Lordships’ House that the Government are committed to implementing the Windsor Framework in good faith. This is a particular set of circumstances and the first opportunity to secure such arrangements, so it is important to see it in this light. I am glad that the noble Baroness welcomes this action by the Government; it is certainly intended to serve the good people of Northern Ireland, and I am glad to be able to present that today.