Transparency of Donations and Loans etc. (Northern Ireland Political Parties) Order 2018

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his statement today and express my support for this proposed legislation. I declare my interest as chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. In our fifth report, on The Funding of Political Parties in the United Kingdom in 1998, in our 13th report of 2011 and in a statement in April 2014, we called for the changes that the Government are finally bringing about.

From the point of view of transparency in our electoral law, this is a wise move: whether it has been delayed too long because of exaggerated fears about violence, I am not quite sure. It is useful to remember that, although at times we now hear people claiming that the peace process is on the verge of collapse, we all seem confident enough to do this, which would suggest that, whatever the tensions that arise out of Brexit, the peace process might not actually be on the verge of collapse.

I have one issue to raise that has already been alluded to by the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Browne of Belmont, and that is the issue of foreign donations. The truth of the matter is that our electoral law does not only impose a demand for transparency—and on this, we are now bringing Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom—but is opposed to foreign donations in principle, and we are bending it radically here. The Minister used the laconic phrase, “certain Irish citizens”. The point about this is that, as one of his predecessors from the Labour Party said at this Dispatch Box in the summer of 2007 in exactly this context, Ireland has a very capacious definition of its citizenry. It is a fact that you can be an Irish citizen living in New York city, having never set foot in Northern Ireland, and be contributing money under the terms of what we have agreed.

I completely understand the unease that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and others have expressed about a particular donation connected to the Brexit campaign. That unease is entirely legitimate, but the truth is that it is really as nothing compared to the fact that we now have a situation in which the Government might conceivably fall, if the seven Sinn Féin Members turn up in Parliament, because of the votes of MPs who were elected with money from foreign sources. This is obviously a rather larger problem looming on the horizon. That is worth alluding to, because the reason why we have not in recent years—in both Houses of Parliament—been too concerned over this breaching of the principle on foreign donations has been to do with the fact that the Members of Parliament concerned do not actually turn up. We cannot assume that this will carry on for ever, and I think it is very unlikely that it will carry on for ever.

There are two problems: it is not only the Brexit donation. There is a point on the other side of the ledger, which is likely to be considerably more important and sensitive in the future. Can the Minister respond on what he means by “certain Irish citizens”? I accept that he has explained the terms under which they would give, but are we still in the framework, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said 10 and a half years ago, of the capacious definition of Irish citizenship? If so, this is foreign donation in the normal sense that our law disapproves of strongly.

Although this is not a happy circumstance, the Government are right to, as it were, look the other way and tolerate it. We are in a very difficult moment with Brexit. There is great sensitivity among Irish nationalists that the balance of identity has been shifted against them in certain ways. I regard some of those fears as exaggerated, but it does not really matter; that is what is in their mind. The Government are quite right as part of their acknowledgement of the nationalist identity in Northern Ireland to leave the door open for certain Irish citizens to donate. However, they should say, “We are doing something quite remarkable here. We shouldn’t just stick it away in a corner. We are doing our best to be fair across the border in Northern Ireland and we are taking a bit of a risk which could be highly controversial. We are doing it because of our commitment to equality of esteem within Northern Ireland”. If one is going to make a concession at this point, there is no point in hiding it away; one might as well openly declare that the Government are doing something generous, risky and, in my opinion, absolutely right. However, they should say, “This is a broad-minded move on our part”.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, as we have heard, the draft order provides for the full publication of donations and loans received after 1 July 2017, which is the bone of contention that we have with it. I absolutely agreed with my noble friends Lady Suttie and Lord Tyler, who outlined the problem so clearly.

All have to abide by the rules that govern information on political donations and loans in the rest of the UK, so Northern Ireland—which is still part of the UK, is it not?—must now abide by the same rules as everyone else. We are all obliged to publish such donations quarterly, so it is now time for Northern Ireland to do the same.

The real problem, of course, is when the measure should be imposed. The confidentiality clauses, arising out of fears of intimidation of donors, were always considered to be a temporary measure, and we can see that the people of Northern Ireland have always wanted transparency in this matter—but it appears that the two main political parties have felt otherwise.

In January 2017, all parties agreed to this measure. On these Benches, we have spoken many times—and certainly for as long as I have been a Member of this House and speaking on Northern Ireland matters; I am in my 19th year—about transparency being essential at the earliest possible time. It took a member of the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland, the former MLA for Belfast East, Naomi Long, to remove some of the severe restrictions about disclosure in 2014, in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, where the Secretary of State had the power to give the Electoral Commission permission to publish the details of individual donors if he or she felt it expedient to do so.

So it is safe to say that the Alliance Party has urged transparency for many years. I well remember dealing with legislation coming out of the Belfast agreement where these Benches echoed those views—but to no avail until now. I hope that it is accepted that all political parties in Northern Ireland now see the importance of transparency rather than using the old arguments against it.

This order, however, should be backdated to 2014, especially as we see the incredible lack of progress on any matters dealing with Northern Ireland. I am afraid that the DUP, in particular, cannot have it both ways: being a part of the UK but not wishing to abide by any laws that do not suit its particular brand of politics. When it suits the DUP to receive a huge donation of money—which, we understand, was not used in Northern Ireland during the referendum campaign —but not to have the legislation applied to a time before it accepted that donation, it is time to ask why the Government went along with this shabby and entirely political manoeuvre in allowing a later date for the order to be implemented. So will the Minister answer the questions from my noble friends Lady Suttie and Lord Tyler about when the Government intend to bring in the further legislation which will backdate this order to 2014, as strongly recommended by the Electoral Commission? We should be told.

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating if rather short debate on an important subject. I recall that about 21 years ago, the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland visited me in my ministerial office with a suitcase. In the suitcase were about 300 to 400 fraudulent ballot papers. I suddenly realised that things were a bit different in Northern Ireland from my constituency in south Wales. They were of course impersonated ballot papers and I often wondered whether they resulted from intimidation. It is quite possible that they did. The reason why the transparency laws in Northern Ireland have not always coincided with those in the rest of the United Kingdom is precisely because of intimidation. For example, if people wanted to donate to this or that party and it was made public, they could well face intimidation. That was wrong and therefore it inevitably took some time for it to change over the last two decades.

I certainly welcome the order; it is a step in the right direction to normalcy in Northern Ireland. But I see the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made with regard to the donation by a particular body—I think it was in Scotland—to the DUP with regard to the European Union referendum. I understand that a lot of that money was used in Northern Ireland and in London; but it did not do much good, because in both those places people voted to remain in overwhelming numbers. Nevertheless, that rather bizarre and controversial donation is an important issue. It was aired very widely in the debate in the other place by my honourable friend Owen Smith and others, and of course it has been aired here. So the idea that the donation has somehow or other not been debated is wrong; it is being debated today and has been debated in the House of Commons as well.

But—and this is an important but—the Electoral Commission has indicated in response to this legislation, which of course it supports, that the Government should bring in another order that would reflect on the situation and go back to 2014. The Minister has rightly told the House that when the political parties were asked about whether the provision should be retrospective, with the exception of the Alliance party they said, “No, it should not be”. They had reasons for that, which again probably relate to intimidation and such factors—but there is a case for the Government to take seriously the Electoral Commission’s recommendation and consult again the political parties in Northern Ireland as to whether it should be backdated. That should not mean that the order should be held up; it should not.

I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, with regard to donations from Irish citizens and various bodies on the island of Ireland. This reflects the different situation in Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom—of course it does. There are obviously people in Northern Ireland who regard themselves as Irish and not British, and people who regard themselves as British and not Irish. Donations from Irish citizens and bodies to political parties in Northern Ireland therefore are and have been acceptable, but they have to lie properly alongside Parliament’s view that foreign donations in general should not be allowed. But I do not think you can disallow Irish citizens—as long as, again, there is an element of transparency in all this.

I hope that we will agree to the order going through, but I also ask the Minister to reflect on the commission’s recommendation on retrospection. This is part of the journey towards reconciliation and the establishment of the institutions in Northern Ireland. This is set against the background of where we are at the moment—which is, frankly, disastrous. We do not want direct rule in Northern Ireland; we want the restitution of the Assembly and of the Executive. This order helps towards that.

Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I will not delay the House long. I have not yet had the opportunity to speak to the Minister across the Dispatch Box and therefore welcome him to his post. However, I would be grateful if he could answer some troubling questions.

My noble friend Lord Foulkes said that there are two counterterrorism forces in the United Kingdom: one is the Metropolitan Police, the other is the British Transport Police. What discussions have taken place between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government on ensuring that intelligence transfer, which is absolutely critical in the fight against terrorism, is in no way compromised by this decision? I take on board the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the expertise and experience of a force that has to deal with problems such as terrorism. There is an accumulated knowledge that cannot necessarily be written down. It comprises a knowledge, an instinct and a recognition of where problems lie.

Over the weekend, we saw the figures mentioned by my noble friend Lord Foulkes—namely, that about two-thirds of the British Transport Police do not wish to go down this transfer route. How will the capability of the new force match the knowledge and experience of the existing British Transport Police? These issues should be above and beyond party political concerns. We all know what the terrible attack on Glasgow Airport felt like. We know the difficulties of communicating intelligence to people who may not have a background in the intelligence community. I look to the Minister for reassurance that this is being discussed with the Scottish Government, the Metropolitan Police and the police forces in England, and with the intelligence and security services for the whole United Kingdom.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned the extent to which we have seen all aspects of transport, including trains, being used as a means of promoting terrorism. We need reassurance on this. Like many of my noble friends and noble Lords, I am concerned about the jingoism around this issue: it has to have Scotland and a tartan stamp on it. We are dealing here with people’s lives and livelihoods. The lives are more important than anything. We need answers. I say from this side of the House that we need reassurance from the Government that they, too, share this concern and are raising it in a pointed and deliberate manner to get the kind of answers that will keep people safe not just north of the border but south of it as well.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, I too will be extremely brief. For many years, I have helped, supported and encouraged the British Transport Police and I remember very well the Act that went through and the concerns that we had then about what would happen if the BTP were joined with Police Scotland. I agree with my noble friend that this is not about the BTP joining Police Scotland, although I am sad about that because that is really what we are all talking about.

I admit that the example I am about to give may not be a very good one, but I want to draw your Lordships’ attention to what happened when the royal parks police force was promised that the parks would continue to be policed adequately when it was merged with the Metropolitan Police. That did not happen—did it?—because the Metropolitan Police force is far too busy to be involved with looking after parks. As I said, this is not an ideal example but it indicates what could well happen if the measure we are discussing goes ahead—and so it will when the BTP joins Police Scotland, which I am afraid is not a very shining example of a police force. What happens when a train reaches the border? I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who asked exactly the same question about what happens either side of the border. Will the BTP have to disembark and hand over to the relevant other branch of the BTP? What will it call itself, because it will not be British anymore? I predict—

[Baroness Adams of Craigielea (Lab)]

We should remember that Scotland does not have a border only with England, but also with Northern Ireland. All that separates us is the Irish Sea. What will happen to the ferries? Will the British Transport Police and the Scottish police change mid-Irish Sea? Will we set up a hard border between Scotland and Northern Ireland? Are we taking Scotland out of that equation? This is more about nationalism than devolution.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond]

The noble Baroness makes a good point and I concur with what she says. I predict that this will go horribly wrong at some point and that is a real shame. I hope that the noble Lord has listened very carefully to the views that have been clearly expressed around the House, and certainly the resolution that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, talked about, as that will be extremely important.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, as a fairly frequent traveller on the east coast railway line from Edinburgh to London King’s Cross, I would like to say a word or two about this issue. As the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, pointed out, there is no train station at the border, which you reach a little north of Berwick-upon-Tweed on your way to Dunbar. As I understand the situation, that means that in order to police effectively south of the border, British Transport Police officers will have to get on to the train at Waverley in Edinburgh, so they will travel the whole way down the line, as they do at present. Going north, they cannot get off at Berwick-upon-Tweed, because they still have several miles to run in England before they reach the Scottish border, and they will have to travel all the way to Waverley.

Therefore, the ridiculous situation created by this proposal by the Scottish National Party is that the British Transport Police force will remain on the train, as it does at present. It will cease to provide the kind of security north of the border that the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, talked about, although to do its job effectively in England, it will have to travel the whole journey. Therefore, members of the Scottish police force will be travelling on the train, getting off at Berwick if they are lucky—but not every train stops there—or going all the way down to Newcastle and then having to travel all the way back again. I cannot speak for the west coast line because I am not so familiar with it, but presumably the same problem applies there, and you have to travel at least to Carlisle before you can get off the train.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, the Bill emerges from the fresh start agreement of late 2015, in which the main parties in Northern Ireland, most particularly the two senior and largest governing parties, the DUP and Sinn Fein, reached an agreement on a series of matters that had been in contention. Some of them are matters of governance involving the budget and welfare payments, but others involve questions of security and the legacy of the past.

I bring forward this amendment because the Bill before us, which we debated at Second Reading recently, is firmly based on the fresh start agreement; that is perfectly appropriate in general principle terms. However, there was one element of the establishment of the Independent Reporting Commission which, from my own experience of it, I felt was unsatisfactory. The Bill does not spell this out, merely referring to Article 5.1 of the fresh start agreement, but that article says that the commission will produce annual reports. That is the issue of difficulty for me.

When the Independent Monitoring Commission was established by legislation and treaty between the Governments of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in 2003, it was required by law to report at least twice a year. It could also be asked to produce ad hoc reports but it was required to report twice a year on the situation with paramilitaries and security normalisation. The experience of the subsequent seven years was one of some reasonable success. However, one thing that was clear to the four commissioners and to other thoughtful observers was that the relentless force of reports coming every six months—everybody knew when they were coming: paramilitaries, the security services, civil society, politicians—meant that in the run-up to them, the IMC would receive many representations and questions. People would want to come to talk to us to say, “This is how we perceive things are”, and would look to the reports. The IMC did not make any statements in between times—we did not have any press conferences, and so on—and that gave greater strength to the reports, but only because they were coming out every six months. In the period of the IMC we produced 26 reports in all. Most were six-monthly. Most were on paramilitary issues, some were on security normalisation, and a few were specific ad hoc reports that were asked for on problems such as UVF violence, murders and so on.

When the question of bringing back the IMC arose in the later part of last year because of a couple of murders, we had a debate on it in your Lordships’ House. I said at that time that I did not think it appropriate to bring back the IMC because it would have been working in a particular context. I was also concerned that if people were asked to produce a single snapshot report in a very short time, without the possibility of building a whole network of people, official and otherwise, through which a commission could establish what was going on, it would be possible only for the PSNI and MI5 to produce the kind of report they produce regularly for the Secretary of State and then have two or three distinguished people read it and say, “Yes, I think this is an accurate report”, without being able to do any of the investigatory work that would help to triangulate or give other evidence for the views being expressed by the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the security service.

As it was, the Secretary of State decided to go ahead and establish a body, and the report that came from that body did not provide particular reassurance; in fact, in many ways it was much less reassuring than the last reports of the Independent Monitoring Commission. That is why, when it came to fresh start, another agreement had to be reached, which this time had to set up by the end of December 2015 a panel of three people who would produce by the end of May a strategy for the disbanding of paramilitary groups. I declare an interest, because I was appointed by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister as one of those three panel members. We have been doing our work and we still expect to report by the end of May, as we have been requested to do. I expect it to be published perhaps some time during June, although that is a matter for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

The Bill is putting in place an Independent Reporting Commission to take that strategy, if agreed by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and monitor or report on how it is implemented. That is not the same thing as the IMC; it is quite different, as it is to report on a specific strategy, and there may be various aspects of that, but it also reports only once a year. I ask noble Lords to think about that. It is going to take four or five years before a handful of reports is produced so that you can see what is actually happening.

Nearly 20 years after the Belfast agreement, I do not get a sense that there is sufficient urgency in relation to this matter, and I doubt very much that it will be perceived as sufficiently urgent in the minds of many people in Northern Ireland. They want, on a regular but relatively frequent basis, to hear what is happening so that the Executive can be held to account if they suggest legislative changes, which they may or may not do. However, if they do, is it enough to report back only once a year? An annual report is the sort of thing a company produces to fulfil the regulatory requirements and to provide information for shareholders. It is not the sort of thing you produce when you feel that major changes urgently need to take place. It may well be said that matters can be raised within the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is absolutely true, but that is the case at the moment and, if it were satisfactory, there would not be an Independent Reporting Commission.

I tabled this modest amendment not to put the Bill in conflict with fresh start but to appeal to Her Majesty’s Government to understand the need for a greater sense of pressure and urgency in the fulfilment of whatever comes out of the strategy and other matters. I do this not to create difficulties and not to change the Bill, which would mean that it had to go back to the other place. I absolutely appreciate that this legislation needs to be in place before the House prorogues and before the Northern Ireland Assembly has a new Executive, who will have to reach agreement on a programme for government as quickly as possible. I absolutely appreciate that, partly because of other elements of the Bill, but I seek from the Minister, who has been extremely open, helpful and constructive during the relatively rapid progress of the Bill in parliamentary terms, some kind of reassurance that Her Majesty’s Government understand the question I am raising and that they will do what is necessary to find ways of making more frequent reporting possible. There are processes by which that can be done. I absolutely understand that it does not have to be done in the way I have described, but this is the only way we can do something that is reflected in the Bill.

If the Minister could find a way of reassuring us that there will be maintained momentum in this reporting, that would be extremely helpful not just to those of us in your Lordships’ House who want to see movement but to people in Northern Ireland, who at times are despairing and at other times frustrated and impatient at the lack of progress on this important issue. I beg to move.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendment. We hear so little in this House about Northern Ireland. It is really only when we have short debates, reported in Hansard, that we bring what happens in Northern Ireland to the attention of this House and the wider public. Having the IRC report twice a year is the very least we can hope for. I echo my noble friend’s thanks to the Minister and to the Bill team for all the help they have given us on the Bill, and I hope that the noble Lord will consider this matter with great speed and alacrity.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, while the 17 November cross-party talks resulted in the fresh start agreement, it is nevertheless deeply disappointing that no comprehensive agreement following from the Haass talks was achieved. The deal arrived at did not offer anything significant to help the still-divided society in Northern Ireland, especially around the vexed issues of the past—the parades and the flags—all of which remain unresolved. They are a politically important area of work in which everyone should be involved.

Certainly there are elements of the Bill which we welcome, particularly around the Government’s continuing commitment to those matters dealing with the past, about which I shall say a little more in a minute. It is vital that a settlement is arrived at in which the victims of the years of violence and their families can have these issues resolved.

I wish to concentrate my remarks on the security issues within the Bill. I remind your Lordships of my interests in the register, particularly those relating to the police.

Clauses 1 to 5 deal with the setting up of the Independent Reporting Commission, which will look into paramilitary activities. It is to report on the implementation of the relevant measures of the three Administrations—the UK Government, the Government of Ireland and the Northern Ireland Executive. It will report annually on the progress towards the ending of paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland having consulted a wide range of national and statutory agencies and civic society, as we have heard. We wish it well in this herculean task. I ask the Minister whether it is intended to widen the membership of the IRC to perhaps include a respected and knowledgeable person who could act as mediator in what I imagine would be pretty fraught discussions. Does he not think that an internationally acclaimed mediator might be a helpful addition in its deliberations?

The Police Service of Northern Ireland has had to deal with some of the worst aspects of paramilitary activity. In the last 12 months alone it has dealt with 46 shooting incidents; there were 14 more bombing incidents than in the previous 12 months; 60 casualties resulted from paramilitary-style assaults, an increase of 11 over the previous year; and 24 casualties resulted from paramilitary-style shootings—this in an area not much bigger than my county of North Yorkshire. The murder of prison officer Adrian Ismay on 4 March in Belfast, using an under-vehicle improvised explosive device, underlines the importance of doing everything we can to help and support all our security officers going about their duties. The assistant chief constable of the PSNI expressed his deep concern about the current dissident threats and reminded people that the paramilitary groups want to:

“Kill police officers, prison officers and soldiers”.

The threat from terrorism is still very real in Northern Ireland.

It is also a threat in the Republic, and the assistant Garda commissioner warned that the dissident republicans were becoming more sophisticated, particularly in their bomb-making capability. He itemised the cache of weapons—ammunition, mortars, rocket launchers and Semtex—that the Gardai had recovered. Twenty-two people have been arrested and charged in the Republic on suspicion of dissident republican paramilitary activity, indicating the ever-closer professional working relationship between the two police forces and the security forces. The Bill recognises this close relationship and no doubt the IRC will do so too.

The PSNI is working extremely hard under difficult circumstances to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe in the present. It also continues to investigate crimes from the past on a scale that no other police force in the UK can imagine, first through the Historical Enquiries Team, and now through the Legacy Investigation Branch. While there is currently no political agreement to establish the historical investigations unit, as provided for in the Stormont House agreement, the justice system in Northern Ireland continues to carry out its duties to the victims and families of crimes committed in the past. It deserves our fullest support.

The issues around legacy will be watched closely. As I said earlier, the Government’s commitment to look again at the difficult issues surrounding the past needs to be recognised, but we have been here so many times before. There is an excellent document sitting on a shelf somewhere that was written some years ago by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and Denis Bradley. Its conclusions, had they been acted on earlier, might have provided a rather different landscape from the one in which we still find ourselves. Legacy issues will have to be addressed for Northern Ireland to move forward.

There are countless unsolved crimes, including those against police officers and their families, and the search for justice must continue. With the new legacy bodies being established, can the noble Lord tell me whether the money for them will be ring-fenced? If so, can he assure me that it will be apportioned equitably so that it will include the large numbers of police officers murdered or injured by terrorists?

Finally, having spoken for many years on policing issues in Northern Ireland, I fervently hope that the fresh start agreement will give the brave men and women who serve the public and who daily face the threat of terrorism some reassurance that we are on their side and that their concerns are addressed in this legislation.

Northern Ireland: Paramilitary Groups

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I note very carefully what my noble friend says, but I do not wish to speculate on detail that goes beyond the assessment. I note the conclusions in paragraph 13, which is the important basis on which we need to move forward. We judge that this strategy has a wholly political focus, that the PIRA of the Troubles era is well beyond recall and that PIRA’s leadership remains committed to the peace process. I do not wish to minimise for a minute the challenges that we still have. The important thing is to use this assessment to inform the urgent and intensive discussions that now need to take place among the five parties to resolve and eradicate for ever paramilitary activity in Northern Ireland.

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that the PSNI has the tools it needs to do the job? One of the real problems we see in Northern Ireland is that the paramilitary movement is taking on smuggling, drug dealing and that sort of thing. These are areas that the police should be involved in. I am still not convinced that the chief constable and the Police Service of Northern Ireland have all the resources they need to stop what is happening there. If these things were happening over here on the mainland, we would not in all conscience accept that the police could not deal with them. I hope the Minister can give me some assurance that the Government support what the Police Service of Northern Ireland is doing.

[Lord Dunlop]

We are of course very supportive of what the PSNI is doing. I am sure noble Lords from all parts of the House will want to ensure that the PSNI has all the support it needs to do the very difficult and important job that it has got to do. The UK Government have provided additional funding in the order of £230 million over the last five years. It also highlights the importance of resolving the very pressing budget and welfare issues. That is absolutely crucial to finding the right way through all this.

Northern Ireland: Political Developments

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating this Statement, which does not seem to take us much further down the road from the events of last week. That is a little disappointing. There have been relationship breakdowns between power-sharing parties on and off now for a number of years, and we lurch from semi-crisis to crisis all too often. The poor electors of Northern Ireland must be getting utterly disheartened by the bad behaviour of some of their leaders. Do the Government agree that there is a need to address paramilitaries of all kinds, whether unionist or nationalist, and that there must not be any relationship between democratically elected politicians and paramilitary organisations?

The Statement says that the talks are focused on two issues: paramilitarism and the implementation of the Stormont House agreement. Are the Government content that tackling these two issues will be enough to break the cycle of crises that has befallen the Northern Ireland Executive in recent years? Is there not merit in taking a wider view, including consideration of institutional structures and processes that prevent the kind of political progress that is required if public services are to be maintained?

Do the Government have a view on whether the actions of these Ministers in recent days amount to a breach of the pledge of office that all Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive are required to take? They pledge to,

“discharge in good faith all the duties of office”,

and to,

“participate fully in the Executive Committee, the North/South Ministerial Council, and the British-Irish Council”.

The structures of Northern Ireland are in grave danger of not working for much longer. That would be tragic for the people of Northern Ireland, who have rightly enjoyed the peace that was predicated on the Good Friday agreement 17 years ago. They want a stable society, and it is up to the Government, both here and there, to deliver that to them.

Last week, speaking on Northern Ireland in the previous Statement, I talked about the real problems the police in Northern Ireland face day in, day out. I was therefore very pleased to hear in the Statement that more work will be going on to support efforts to tackle organised crime and cross-border crime. That surely will mean more financial support for the police, who have lost so many officers in recent years. This past season has seen 45 police officers injured in civil disorders. If that happened here, we can imagine the sort of outcry that would ensue. Moreover, concessions should not be made to just one part of the power-sharing parties. They must be seen to be fair to all, and I urge the Government to ensure this.

The Statement says that the talks and negotiations are time-limited. On the one hand, the Statement says that time is limited, and with every day that passes, the devolved institutions are likely to be less able to function effectively. On the other hand, the Secretary of State appears to be telling the House that, rather than there being the intense, focused negotiations which she told us just last week were urgently needed, the furthest the discussions have reached thus far is a series of bilateral talks about talks. How do the Government believe that real urgency and momentum can be injected into the process to halt what appears to be a slide towards ever more gridlock?

On the relationship of the body along the lines of the Independent Monitoring Commission, have the Government given any consideration to the remit that such a body might have? The noble Lord mentioned that earlier. In addition to monitoring the activities of paramilitary organisations, might there be a role for that body, for example, to monitor the implementation by politicians of agreements reached between themselves, particularly those intended to address the legacy of the past? It is critical to reach the point where political agreements are not left to sit unimplemented, with all the damage that that does to public confidence in the political process.

If these vital talks are to be jointly shared by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Irish Government, can the Minister assure me that those relationships are strong and constructive? How often do meetings take place between them? If there is sufficient will to make these talks work, the problems confronting the Executive can and should be solved quickly.

[Lord Dunlop]

First, I thank the two noble Lords opposite for their contributions. I particularly welcome the confirmation from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that his party intends to continue a bipartisan approach to Northern Ireland and remains committed to the principle of consent. It is a great strength when we in this Parliament can demonstrate a bipartisan approach to Northern Ireland. Having said that, the current situation is undoubtedly grave. We remain totally committed to devolution in Northern Ireland. That is why my right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary is holding intensive talks with the five parties, and why we urge all parties to engage with the talks process with focus, determination and, of course, good will.

Turning to specific issues raised by noble Lords, the first was that of full authority. I confirm that we will bring to bear the full authority of the UK Government in these talks, and will focus on implementation of the Stormont House agreement and the paramilitary activity. On the chief constable’s assessment, the Government agree with it but we would be cautious about expounding upon what is already in the public domain. On the ongoing PSNI investigation, again it would be unhelpful to speculate about that. It is not in the interests of justice. The police must be able to follow the evidence without fear or favour. On the issue of police resources, of course the PSNI needs the resources to discharge its very important responsibilities.

On the ambiguity issue that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, raised, there is no room for it here. There is no place for paramilitary organisations in Northern Ireland. They are a blight on society, they are not wanted and they should disband. On cross-agency working, yes, we see the need for agencies to work together and to involve community groups so that we can find a solution to the problems Northern Ireland faces. On the IMC, I do not want to prejudice what parties might propose as part of the talks process, but the Government recognise that such a body could play a role and any remit that such a body had would need to reflect the changed circumstances.

I was asked about Stormont House agreement implementation and legislation. As has already been said, the Stormont House agreement was a great achievement. It is very important that the UK Government deliver on their commitments, so we continue to work on the Bill. Our aim is to present to Parliament next month the legislation as planned.

On welfare reform and the special circumstances of Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State made very clear that the Government will not fund a more generous Northern Ireland welfare system, but we have to recognise that funding already acknowledges Northern Ireland’s special circumstances. Northern Ireland’s spending per head is already 23% higher than the UK average and, of course, a key part of the Stormont House agreement was the inclusion of £2 billion additional spending power. These talks need to be urgent, focused and intensive—talks that take weeks, not months—and we will work very closely with the Irish Government to get people round the table and find solutions to the problems Northern Ireland is facing.

Northern Ireland: Political Situation

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Tuesday 8th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)]

My Lords, the chief constable has said that he accepts the assurances Sinn Fein has given that it wants to support the police in bringing those responsible for these murders to justice. It would be a very good idea for Sinn Fein to demonstrate openly how it will do this. Producing internal door-to-door inquiries of its own is tantamount to providing an alternative police force and it cannot do this legitimately. Therefore, I hope that Sinn Fein will now actively help the police find those responsible for the murders.

Does the noble Lord agree with the comments made by Mark Lindsay, the chair of the Police Federation of Northern Ireland, when he said that:

“It is a very worrying development if a command structure can be activated at will. Our members view developments with great and justifiable concern. Officers are doing their best to police and safeguard this entire community and that means there is no place for murder gangs or paramilitary organisations which have nothing but misery to offer”?

The truth is that the leaders of some of the parties in Northern Ireland have not been doing their job to solve the problems that are still faced there. Some of the language they use is deeply unhelpful. It is vital now that they step up and help solve the problems that people living over here find incomprehensible after all the time and money that we have spent on Northern Ireland. It has been done in the past—it needs to be done now and urgently.

[Lord Dunlop]

I very much agree with the noble Baroness that the Police Service of Northern Ireland needs the support of the community in pursuing these investigations. If people have information that will help the police with their inquiry, we would certainly encourage them to come forward.