Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Debate between Baroness Hanham and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, “he” has become “she”, as I hope noble Lords will notice.
I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Hodgson and to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, who introduced this matter in Committee, for setting out their amendments to Clause 22 on behalf of the Canal & River Trust. I was delighted to have an opportunity to meet and talk with representatives from the trust and to hear what they had to say. I am grateful to them for taking the time to come and tell me how they think the proposed changes to parliamentary procedure will affect the Canal & River Trust.
Of course we understand that the trust carries out a vital role in the preservation of the heritage of our inland waterways. However, I think that I am going to disappoint noble Lords because I will not be able to accept the amendments, and it may be helpful if I set out why.
My noble friend Lord Ahmad spoke in Committee on why the existing provisions for the examination of nationally significant infrastructure projects provide sufficient opportunities to make representations in cases involving the compulsory acquisition of statutory undertaker land. These opportunities will continue to be available to the Canal & River Trust if land it holds as an undertaker is subject to compulsory purchase under provisions in the Planning Act. Most importantly, the trust will still benefit from the provisions in Section 127 of the 2008 Act. This provides that where land was acquired by statutory undertakers—which, of course, British Waterways was—for the purposes of their undertaking and is used or held for those purposes, then it may be acquired only if the Secretary of State is satisfied that there will not be serious detriment to the carrying on of the undertaking, or that the land can be purchased and replaced with other land without any such detriment. This is a significant test. Alongside the need for a compelling case in the public interest for compulsory acquisition, it will be a key factor for the Secretary of State when reaching a decision on whether to authorise compulsory acquisition of statutory undertaker land.
I know from the meeting with the Canal & River Trust that it also has concerns about the changes we are making to special parliamentary procedure where open space is compulsorily acquired. On this, I make the point that the changes we are proposing will require strong tests to be passed before special parliamentary procedure can be disapplied. Where it is decided that special parliamentary procedure should not apply because suitable replacement land is not available, or is available only at prohibitive cost, this will be possible only where it is demonstrated to be strongly in the public interest for the development to start sooner than if it were subject to an SPP.
The provisions in this Bill treat the Canal & River Trust in the same way as any other statutory undertaker. That is inherently different from the position of the National Trust, which has been cited and which has special status in legislation dating back to 1907. In terms of special parliamentary procedure, the National Trust is specifically identified in legislation and given express protection by virtue of its role in the preservation of national heritage; for example, in the Acquisition of Land (Authorisation Procedure) Act 1946, the Acquisition of Land Act 1981, and most recently in the Planning Act 2008. No other organisation with responsibilities for heritage has the same specific named status in respect of legislation covering special parliamentary procedure.
As I said at the outset, we do not believe that the Canal & River Trust should be treated in the same way as the National Trust. I regret that we cannot agree to these amendments, and I appreciate that both the noble Lords and the Canal & River Trust will be disappointed. However, given what I have said about the existing opportunities to allow the trust to make a case against any compulsory acquisition of its land and that these will remain unchanged following the passage of this Bill, I hope that the noble Lord will understand why we cannot accept his amendment and that he will withdraw it.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, for his support and the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for his powerful remarks and for his description of our meeting, which I agree was encouraging, even if we have had a bucket of cold water poured over us this evening. My noble friend said quite a lot; she said it quite fast and there was quite a lot of technical detail that I would like to have a look at. I did not find the arguments as to why the National Trust is entirely different from the Canal & River Trust completely compelling because, as I understand it, quite a lot of the basis on which the Canal & River Trust holds heritage assets is precisely modelled on the way that the National Trust holds its land and property. However, the hour is late and I should like to read carefully what my noble friend said and think again, having reflected carefully. I thank her for what she told us and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Debate between Baroness Hanham and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for a very interesting debate. It has circled around a number of areas. Most specifically, the concentration has been on design and the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Best. We believe that design is sufficiently well taken care of and safeguarded in the planning policies. One needs to take account of the fact that design is very subjective. The noble Lord, Lord Newton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, made that point. However, nothing within the development of a neighbourhood plan would stop neighbourhoods saying what sorts of designs they would like. It would not necessarily be binding on the inspector but it would be guidance for the future—the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, talked about predetermination —when developers were going to develop and had to hold predetermination discussions with the neighbourhood.
I think that I will resist taking it any further today by putting it more strongly in the Bill, as proposed in the amendments. I understand exactly what the noble Lord is saying; and I understand those who say that this is a very difficult area to deal with because what is good design in one person's mind is not appropriate in that of another.
The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, asked whether we would include in the Bill the question of using local stone, and so on. No, but the response I have just made about design probably covers the same. If the local neighbourhood wanted to have Cotswold stone as the only means to use in developments, there is nothing to stop it saying in the plan that it believes that Cotswold stone would be the ideal. It would then have to discuss that with developers before any suggestion of a development order or planning permission was given. Once again, I do not think that that is suitable for the Bill, but it can be taken into account.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
I absolutely understand what my noble friend is saying, but she will understand that a local community trying to get a national housebuilder to move off-plan—of its standard houses—will be very difficult. There will be inequality of arms in a local community trying to deal with a national housebuilder. The housebuilder will have its designs and will say, “This is how it works”. No account will be taken of what the locality has produced historically in either design or materials.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, that is a rather depressing view of how neighbourhood forums and neighbourhood plans will be developed. The whole point of having a neighbourhood plan is to have the local community say what they would like, how they would like it and how they would want something constructive. The local community is in a much stronger position. We have already discussed predetermination, but developers will have to go to talk to the neighbourhood before they get planning permission under a development order about how they will develop it. The whole thrust and emphasis is that they should be able to have discussions, make plans and carry them out according to what the neighbourhood wants. If the neighbourhood wants Cotswold stone and the developers do not, there will be an interesting battle of arms as to who comes out on top, but as the neighbourhood holds in its hands the development order and the planning permission, I rather suspect that it would be in a strong position.
The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, asked whether communities can promote development outside urban areas through neighbourhood planning. If neighbourhood planning is pro-growth—we want to extend communities, developments and housing—communities could use a neighbourhood plan to promote a higher level of growth than in the local plan, but it would still need to have regard to national policy. Practically all the answers that I give tonight will be that plans have to be in general conformity with either national or local policies.
Localism Bill
Debate between Baroness Hanham and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, we keep coming back to the same issue. I take the point that we probably need to look at the narrowing of the classification but by doing that we will still have to look at what would not be caught, which is what these amendments address. I heard the rant by my noble friend Lord Hodgson and I do not suppose for a moment that he expects me to say anything other than that we have heard what he said. I will deal with all the points raised but I should like to say from the outset that we are quite sympathetic to looking at this again.
On the government amendments, I have already said that we are sympathetic to the intention of Amendment 144A. We understand the concerns of some rural landowners who are already making their land available for periodic community use. It is certainly not our intention to discourage them from doing so. Where a listed asset forms part of a larger piece of land, we recognise that to delay the sale of the whole estate would in most cases be completely disproportionate. I am happy to confirm for the noble Lord that we will have a look at this, which complies with my previous commitment.
As set out in our consultation document, which I am sure everyone has read from cover to cover, we intend to exempt a range of different types of disposals that do not impinge on the intended aim of a policy. We have already indicated our intention to exempt disposals of land due to inheritance and gifts, and transfers between family members, in light of responsible consultations. I think that that encompassed everything put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner. But in hoping that we have a little time before the Recess and Report stage to discuss these issues, I am happy to say that we will reconsider or consider those with him and other noble Lords concerned.
Amendments 143, 143ZA and 144 would exempt the disposal of business-to-business transactions where there was no risk to the continuation of the business. Earlier, I mentioned that we understood that the use of a power might stay as the use of a power but if it was sold between two companies we would not expect that to be caught up in the community asset ability to buy.
However, we are slightly afraid that the amendments could have some unintended consequences and would create more confusion than clarity, which a number of noble Lords seem to think this is anyway. We are not sure what the terms “risk of closure” and “business” mean. We are prepared to look at these again and discuss them with noble Lords to see whether we can avoid any further unintended consequences that would impact on the aim of the policy. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for those answers and for her sympathetic ear to these probing amendments. Amendment 144 is focused on business-to-business transactions. I entirely accept that the phrase “risk of closure” would not commit itself to parliamentary draftsmen but I have never known any Back-Bench Members who have ever committed themselves to parliamentary draftsmen because they always want to take it away and tidy it up. As regards the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, the time to act is before the closure takes place but, once the closure has happened the business, or service, may well be doomed or its risk of failure much increased.
I am grateful to my noble friend for her positive response and look forward to returning to this matter later when we have some further thinking from the Government. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Local Government: Big Society
Debate between Baroness Hanham and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, as I made clear in my original reply, local authorities are now almost entirely responsible for the money that they receive from government. They are responsible for their budgets and, therefore, have their choices to make. However, it seems to me to be an inescapable fact that local authorities ought to continue to support the voluntary sector because, as the noble Lord said, it provides great support for the work that they do. It is also part of the Government’s policy under the Localism Bill, which we will be discussing quite soon, that the voluntary sector should have a large part to play in managing and directing the services that are in local authority control.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
A number of local authorities now appear to be making disproportionate cuts in the grants to charities and voluntary groups. Why they are doing that is not clear. Is there not a reason for local authorities to consult with charities and voluntary groups to ensure that the right long-term solutions are arrived at to provide services for the communities that they look after at a time when we have perfectly appalling economic circumstances inherited from the last Labour Government?
Baroness Hanham
I thank my noble friend. The Government’s whole purpose is to pass responsibility and money from central to local government. Therefore, on the decisions that they have to make, they will consult with those who they will be using or who are co-operating with them. The whole question of a voluntary sector is the purpose of these questions today. The voluntary sector remains an extremely important provider not only of services but also of support. I am sure that any local authority worth its salt would recognise that.