Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 17th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my registered interests. Most notably, I am president of the Local Government Association and a board member of the National Academy for Social Prescribing, and I live in the north-east of England. I have other, wider interests which are noted in the register.

I am going to focus my contribution on health inequalities. There are many unfair barriers that prevent some people having good health or good access to healthcare. This could be due to their income, where they live, their ethnicity, disability or many other factors. Where I live, men’s life expectancy is 12 and a half years lower, and women’s 13 years lower, in the most deprived areas than in the least deprived areas.

Many noble Lords have talked this evening about vehicles for change. Social prescribing is one of those vehicles that helps to tackle health inequalities by addressing the specific issues that people face. Social prescribing link workers have time to get to know people, understand their unique situation and what matters to them, and can connect them to relevant activities and support. The National Academy for Social Prescribing’s recent thriving communities fund provided a blueprint for how social prescribing can tackle health inequalities, having reached more than 10,000 people. It hugely improved the connections between the health system and local charities, ensuring that people had many different routes to support. Social prescribing also means that partners from across the arts, heritage, physical activity and natural environment sectors work together, sometimes for the first time.

We should be really proud that NHS England became the first healthcare system in the world to include link workers as part of its workforce, but we need to do far more to make meaningful dents in inequalities. The current state of the United Kingdom’s health and well-being should be of grave concern. It is a real barrier to levelling up. We have to be far more creative than we have ever been. That includes being smarter in how we promote and support physical activity in its widest context as part of the solution.

There is no doubt that the energy crisis is putting significant pressure on the physical activity sector; research highlighted by ukactive from Deloitte and IHRSA, the Global Health & Fitness Association, shows that by supporting the workforce to be active we can generate up to £17 billion a year for the economy. More than 20 million people in the UK have a problem relating to musculoskeletal conditions, such as arthritis, chronic pain or knee replacements, keeping many out of work and on waiting lists. This is just not good enough.

There is one advantage to coming 60th on the speakers’ list: most of what I would have said has been said already. It might be useful if I just give the Minister notice of the areas in which I will support amendments. They will be particularly around residents being able to access key facilities such as schools, healthcare and public transport within a short walk of their homes; and cycling and walking networks, which need to take into account the needs of disabled people to ensure good accessibility. I am tired of seeing bike paths being built with gates that stop wheelchair users, hand bikes or trikes from having access. You need only look at the social media feed of Paralympian Hannah Dines to see some of the issues. These are very easy things to fix with just a little consideration.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is not in his place. I have a slightly different view on HS2 from him. I think it has a lot of value, but it would be incredible if the Government could think about level boarding for it as a way to level up transport for disabled people in this country.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes, covered pavements and licensing fees. A-boards are the scourge of many disabled people and I understand that some councils have concerns about the logistical challenges associated with the current enforcement provisions in the Bill. Again, this could make a massive difference for disabled people.

Finally, if we are really serious about regenerating the high street, we must look at planning laws. It is currently easier to open a chicken shop on the high street than a yoga studio, which is not good enough. While councils are broadly supportive of the guiding principles, more detail is needed to ensure that they can be applied in practice. I very much look forward to the next stages of the Bill.

Building Safety Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 21st February 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests: I am the president of the Local Government Association and, when in London, I stay in a block of flats. I have a number of amendments in this group. Amendment 9 is the most substantive but my name is also attached to Amendments 4A, 7A, 7B and 147A.

I tried not to test the Committee’s patience by adding “and disabled people” to every part of the Bill I could, but I am looking for more specific recognition that disabled people need greater support and protection than they currently have. If they are not specifically mentioned, disabled people will be forgotten, however good the intention right now may be. There are several important parts where explicitly mentioning disabled people would add significant value, such as on residents’ panels. Of course, there are many types of impairment —we are not one homogenous group—but bringing in additional or different knowledge would be useful for a far greater number of people.

I listened to the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. It is what disabled people think about every single day. In every building I go into, I automatically start thinking about how I would get out if there was a fire. The noble Baroness and I could probably spend most of the afternoon listing all the instances when we have been left near or on staircases, but I take my personal responsibility very seriously. I can still get down a flight of stairs in my wheelchair as long as I have a handrail to hold on to. I can do it reasonably quickly; when I was an athlete, I could do it incredibly easily. However, I know that, as I get older, it will get harder and my ability to get out will become more challenging.

One time, I was in an office block when the fire alarm went off. It was not a drill. There was one evacuation chair—absolutely fantastic—but there were two wheelchair users on that floor. We looked at each other and worked out who needed the evac chair the most. I went down five flights of stairs in my wheelchair. Since Second Reading, more disabled people have got in touch with me to explain their fears but also to let me know about some solutions they have been given. Quite frankly, they were ludicrous, which is why we need to have different things included in this Bill.

In situations like this, we often see that the solutions that non-disabled people come up with are very much based on the medical model, rather than the social model, of disability and do not take into account a disabled person’s reality or life. It was once suggested to me, not in relation to this Bill, that it would be far easier if disabled people had a curfew so that they went home at night and we knew where they were. It was a really serious suggestion; I struggled not to laugh at it, I am afraid. If anything vaguely approaches that in Committee, I hope noble Lords will understand if I push back on it quite strongly. Tagging disabled people is not a sensible solution to this problem either because it absolves us from our responsibility to change how we think about disabled people. We need to be more forward-thinking and, in essence, we need to future-proof the decisions we take.

Specifically on Amendment 9, in another place, the right honourable Mr Christopher Pincher said:

“The Secretary of State can already consider the vulnerability of residents when making regulations.”—[Official Report, Commons, 19/1/22; col. 435.]


However, I do not think that this goes far enough. I know that there are likely be suggestions about including information in a premises information box; that is interesting but, again, it does not go far enough. We need to consider the needs of disabled people. I very much welcome a discussion with the Minister and the Bill team to think about how we can find the right wording, not just by sticking “and disabled people” at every point in the Bill but by genuinely helping disabled people to make it better.

At Second Reading, I asked the Minister when the personal emergency evacuation plan consultation would be published. On 3 February I asked a Question for Written Answer about this, and the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, answered on 17 February that it would be

“once the views of all individuals and organisations who contributed have been carefully considered.”

She stated that the timeframe would be “shortly”. I know that “shortly”, in parliamentary terms, can be quite a wide timeframe. Can the Minister provide any update on what it means in this context? This piece of work would be incredibly useful in helping us navigate this Bill.

I am expecting some sympathy from the Minister, although possibly not much movement. Obviously, I will take away his comments from this debate, but will return on Report with amendments in this area and divide the House on ensuring that we have protection for disabled people.

I will speak very briefly to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra. He apologises for not being here today; he is trying to get down to London—when he spoke to me this morning he was stuck somewhere around Penrith. He is hoping to be here very shortly. He messaged me to say that, with his amendment, he wanted to add buildings below 18 metres that pose a special risk—not to tie the Secretary of State’s hands but to give the option of complete flexibility to define “buildings” and alter any of the definitions in the section. As he expressed passionately at Second Reading, we have no idea what will be found when proper inspections take place, but there are flats that have been converted from office blocks and box flats with no windows.

Most of his amendments are in the form of “regulations may”. He made it very clear that, when he chaired the Delegated Powers Committee, he would have deplored such a formulation of words, but he recognises that a number of provisions in the Bill must inevitably be skeletal. He also said that taking the power does not mean that it has to be used and it certainly does not imply a commitment to undertake fire remedial work on all buildings, even those under 11 metres which may still be four storeys high.

[Lord Stunell (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow on from what the noble Baroness has outlined. I strongly support what she has been saying. I will speak on a couple of other points that have been raised so far, particularly on Amendment 4 and what the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said, and on what my noble friend Lord Foster proposes in his amendment.

However, I will first deal with the point just raised. It is not about a theoretical code; there are absolute, actual conflicts between the requirements which fire officers, for instance, dictate in relation to fire doors—how soon they should shut, and so on—and the requirements of what someone with mobility problems needs to pass through that doorway. These issues are not resolved at the moment; they are not just the subject for soft words but for reconciling the tensions and devising ways to find solutions to those problems. I could make the same point about railings and barriers, where what is required for fire safety is often in conflict with what disabled people need.

Apart from the generality of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, I say to the Minister that there are really specific regulatory pitfalls; things which, if you implement them very mechanically, have internal conflicts which need to be resolved. I very much hope the Minister can, at least during the passage of this Bill if not today, undertake to consult both fire officers and the disabled community on rational ways of solving or at least ameliorating those difficulties.

Amendment 4 was very ably proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp. He has made the central point, which is that there is an important difference between having a set of regulations which are really a complicated algorithm or tick-box—where if you have got everything right you have simply passed, and that is it—and having legislation which sets out the overall purpose of having any regulations or rules at all in the first place. That is where this amendment comes fully into play. It says that safety has a wider import than simply what we mean by making a building fire safe; it is about what we mean by making it safe to live in in the long term.

When I looked at page 82, I was interested to see that Clause 60(8) says that regulations can be made under this provision where there is a significant risk of deaths or

“serious injury to a significant number of people.”

It is clear that, if you think about buildings as things which kill people, far more people are killed by buildings which are damp, leaky and dangerous than by buildings which catch fire. Asthma and bronchitis deaths caused by poor housing form a significant fraction of the health service’s burden during the winter months. That broader outlook or vision of what we actually mean by making a building safe—creating a safe home for people—lies at the heart of this amendment. I very much hope that the Minister will be able to respond to it with a very generous spirit.

I would perhaps urge the Minister on a more practical point: later in the Bill, we shall consider the establishment of residents’ engagement strategies for buildings. I am not sure quite how he envisages those will work, but at some point a large group of residents in a particular building will meet and tell its owners what they believe needs to be done to make their building safe. The Minister has led a council and been to residents’ meetings, so he knows the kinds of things which are raised at them. I would bet that, by 10 complaints to one, they will be about damp, draughts and leaks as against fire doors that do not close properly. Those residents’ engagement groups are going to give a lot of grief to those who run the system in the future. Including this overall vision of what safety and well-being mean within the compass of the Bill and the scope of the new regulatory environment would be one very good way to show that there will be a route for residents to have their complaints, whatever their nature, about their lack of well-being or safety in their home addressed by the legislation.

Having spoken on Amendment 4, of course I strongly support what my noble friend Lord Foster said about the property situation. My support may be irrelevant but I notice that the National Fire Chiefs Council strongly supports this provision, as do the Institution of Fire Engineers and the Association of British Insurers. They all support the inclusion of property risk alongside life safety risk in the regulatory structure that we erect for the Bill. I very much hope that, as with Amendment 4, the Minister will be able to give us a very satisfactory outcome on Amendment 1 from my noble friend Lord Foster.

Building Safety Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Bill. I am not a housing expert, but I have been motivated to speak in this debate due to the significant number of disabled people who have been in touch to express their serious concerns. I declare my interests. I am president of the LGA and, when in London, I stay in a block of flats. This debate has made me strongly consider my personal safety.

Like others in your Lordships’ Chamber, I have received many emails about the costs of remedial work and the impact on people’s lives. It has become apparent that many disabled people have become marooned in their flats, which they, like others, bought in good faith. Disabled people spend an enormous amount of time thinking about accessing and egressing accommodation. They have to take account whether there is a fire lift or whether the lift gets turned off in an emergency. They have to think about evacuation procedures, such as whether it is safer to remain in their flat or to leave; whether there is a refuge or place of safety—they are quite different things—and whether to choose to use an evac chair or an evacuation sledge. That is a difficult choice, as the latter means, for me, giving up my only means of mobility. It is not stepping out of a pair of shoes.

I know from personal experience that finding accessible accommodation that is also affordable and vaguely near where you want to live is incredibly difficult, and you can then become tied into it. Any disabled resident living in a flat under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 has been entitled to have a “suitable and sufficient” fire risk assessment, but one disabled resident who got in touch with me told me that the initial advice in case of emergency was to stay in their flat, but when they sought independent advice they were told to leave because, for the particular block of flats they lived in, if they were there for more than 20 minutes, their chance of survival was severely reduced.

A recent article in the Disability News Service stated that the Government had awarded to CS Todd Associates the contract to produce new fire safety guidance. The same consultants stated in 2011 that it was “usually unrealistic” to expect landlords to put in place arrangements for disabled people to evacuate blocks of flats in the case of an emergency. It also wrote the LGA guidance, which had to be withdrawn, and the British standard, which also had to be withdrawn.

I am also very concerned by comments that have been sent to me by a member of the Fire Safety Forum. I apologise if the comments have been taken slightly out of context, but they do need interrogating. A member of that forum wrote about “what fun” they would have

“watching Rudetube videos of the poor disabled people crawling on their hands and knees down smoke filled corridors when the common parts of the fire alarm system operates to tell them to get out in to the corridors because there is smoke in there. It all promotes equality, because the able bodied people will have to go on their hands and knees too when the smoke layer gets too low, rather than staying in the safety of their flats.”

I am happy to share the links with the Minister and his team. The name alongside those comments is Colin Todd. Even if the word “unrealistic” has been misunderstood or poorly defined—because I recognise the complication of providing a plan in what can be difficult and changing circumstances—it feels as if disabled people are being told that they should not get in anyone else’s way and do not have a chance of evacuating the building.

I understand that the Minister has responded to the request to look into this and said that the contract was awarded according to the correct procedure. I learned this afternoon that a letter has been sent on behalf of some disabled residents to the Home Office asking that the award of this contract be rescinded.

On researching for this debate, I was reminded that, many years ago, I was on a plane and—please bear with me—I was going to an athletics competition. Without anyone ever telling me, I always knew that the chance of me getting off a plane in an emergency was virtually zero. That is why I taught my daughter, from the point she could understand—probably about 18 months old—that if we were ever in that situation, she had to get herself off the plane. On this particular trip I had given up my day chair, was in my seat right at the back with other athletes, and a member of the cabin crew came to tell me that if the plane went down, not only was I not going to get off, but I should not get in other people’s way. Furthermore, no one from the crew, whatever the circumstances, was going to come back and help me off. This is how disabled people feel in these circumstances.

I cannot begin to imagine what anyone went through on 14 June 2017, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sanderson of Welton, for her incredibly moving speech. As reported by Disability Rights UK on 31 March 2021 on the evidence sessions:

“Fifteen of the 37 disabled residents”—


of Grenfell Tower—

“died in the fire that killed 72 people”.

That means that 40% of the disabled people who lived in the tower died.

So I ask the Minister: can he understand why disabled people are so angry, and is it not reasonable that a disabled person should have a plan and have at least a chance of getting out of a building in an emergency? When will Her Majesty’s Government be releasing the outcome of the consultation on personal emergency evacuation plans, which closed on the 19 July last year? Finally, will the Minister offer his reassurance that he will do everything possible to protect disabled people through this Bill as, at the moment, there is little reference to them?

Inclusive Society

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for tabling this debate today. I draw attention to my register of interests and that I am chair of ukactive and sit on the National Academy for Social Prescribing.

The pandemic has been tough, and we must recognise the ongoing risk not just from the virus but to the mental and physical health of our population. The impact of Covid has not been equal: 60% of those who have died have been disabled. In the last year, health inequalities have grown across all age groups. Those who are vulnerable have suffered the most and will continue to do so unless we act. Our NHS has demonstrated resilience of heroic proportions in the face of unprecedented pressure.

While sports stadia fell silent and the shutters fell on pools, gyms, leisure centres and clubhouses in every community, there has been a huge amount of resilience in the sector as so many have sought to support the public to carry on being active. There have been amazing examples of online workout classes and social events, and I also hear amazing stories of gym instructors delivering food parcels.

As Professor Greg Whyte OBE—Olympian, sports scientist and chair of the ukactive scientific advisory board—says, there is a clear correlation between physical inactivity and your risk from Covid-19, meaning that those not meeting the recommended guidelines for activity are at even greater risk than those with underlying conditions. He continues:

“Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, the average UK working adult sat down for nine-10 hours per day”,


and in lockdown, 42% admit to sitting for at least 14 hours longer per week. He said:

“The COVID-19 pandemic has had a profoundly negative impact on health and wellbeing. If we are to avoid an ongoing public health catastrophe, we need to urgently address the legacy of lockdown inactivity.”


This is not a new phenomenon. We have known about the physical inactivity crisis for years, but perhaps the pandemic should be the wake-up call for our nation’s physical activity levels. We know that physical inactivity is one of the greatest causes of death and disease globally. The UK’s activity levels are not where they should be, which weakens us against Covid-19.

On 13 April, The Times reported that the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh said that people aged 16 to 24 could struggle with paying fees to participate and that the Government should consider support in this area. Across the UK, we must be smart about how we roll out social prescribing to enable GPs and healthcare professionals to be creative so that medication is not the first port of call.

The Government are facing difficult times and will no doubt spend a great deal of energy reflecting on this health crisis, assessing how resilient we were to combat this pandemic, and propose change and reform. The scale of that change and reform, especially around public health, must take its place centre stage in our national debate on the future of our nation.

There is an opportunity for the Government to prioritise physical activity through both greater investment and taxation and regulatory reform, and to begin to improve our national well-being following this crisis. We require a national ambition to get all communities active and healthy again as swiftly as possible and to ensure a fitter, more active and resilient population.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

We now return to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.

Business and Planning Bill

Baroness Grey-Thompson Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 2, 5, 12, 17 and 25 in this group. Obviously, from personal experience, I feel very strongly about these amendments. Disabled people are often forgotten when we are thinking about access, and perhaps in the last 10 years not much has really changed. I support physical distancing, while balancing it with the need to open businesses in a safe way, but the Bill should reflect the concerns of disabled people and support them.

Not every disabled person is vulnerable; however, when I think about what disabled people experience in real life without Covid-19, having to manoeuvre round dockless bikes, bad footpaths, poorly dropped kerbs and adverse camber, with the additionality of where we are now, with blue badge spaces being closed off, and how difficult it is for a number of disabled people to move around in a safe way, like others, I hope that the Government will support the amendments in this group. If we do not do this properly, disabled people will stay at home and will not be out spending money, and we know the value of the purple pound. Disabled people are an important part of getting the economy going again, but if this is not done properly, it could put disabled people in more danger by moving them to kerbs and slopes which are not safe for them to use.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, covered well that there must be some urgent investigation regarding Amendment 17, and not just that this will be looked at some time in the future. As noble Lords have mentioned, guidance around disabled people is often forgotten. Also, I would like to see disabled people involved in this change and setting the guidelines and the standards required, because quite often a non-disabled person’s view of what disability access is required is somewhere between interesting and completely unhelpful. A number of people with visual impairments have told me that already in these times, when they have been out and about, they are being bumped into and pushed aside, and wheelchair users are being leaned over, and they cannot just jump out of the way of people coming towards them. That is why a sensible discussion on the amount of space is needed. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, on looking at all the idiosyncrasies around the guidance. Frankly, they are idiotic. There must be one standard.

My final point is that guidance is a lovely idea, but around disabled people it is ignored because it is seen as “just guidance”. It does not effect change in the way we want. One thing that I hope comes out of this is a more positive way of thinking about how disabled people interact with the built environment, to enable them to move around in a better and safer way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lucas [V]]

My Lords, Amendments 22 and 23 are intended to offer the Government an opportunity to outline how a district authority can take full advantage of this Bill when the highways are controlled by a county authority. Without any permissions or discussions whatever, I take the example of my native town of Eastbourne. Grove Road has a lot of cafes in it; the pavements are narrow and the traffic is fairly continuous. There is no way in which the cafes can spill on to the pavements. However, if we can close the road, as is easy to do because there are good workarounds for traffic that would not cause any great problem, we suddenly become able to offer all those businesses the opportunity for profitable trade.

However, in doing this, the district has to work with the county. I would like to see workable arrangements that enable the district to say what they want to happen and for the county to enable that without delay and argument.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson [V]]

My Lords, I have nothing further to add on this amendment at this time.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My lords, I have put my name to Amendments 15, 16 19, 22 and 23. The Bill allows applications for a pavement licence, and it says that they are deemed to have been approved if the local authority has not determined the matter within seven days. That approval then lasts until September 2021. This is not a temporary fix; it is quite a long-term fix. I think most local residents will find it pretty extraordinary that if, by default, something has not been considered or determined by the local authority, it will stand until September next year. These are the people who will be directly, and potentially, very adversely, affected by the outcome.

Clause 2(7) says that the clock starts from the day on which the application is “sent” to the local authority. I am not sure that many people will send such applications by post, but the difference between the date sent and the date received is potentially significant. Why does the Bill not specify that the time limit runs from the receipt of application?

Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, limits such an automatic approval of a licence to September of this year. That would no doubt meet the requirements in the remarks that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is about to make, and it would allow something to happen now. However, it would also mean that the matter could be reviewed in due time, and I would have thought this was a modest amendment that must make sense.

In my view, Amendment 16 goes to the heart of these issues. These determinations should—and, in my view, must—take account of the consultation with those who are going to be affected by them. Like me, the Minister has been a council leader. I doubt whether, in his time in this role, he would have been very happy not to consider or take account of the views of local residents affected by a proposal. I know that, sometimes, matters of high politics might mean that you wish to override them, but most of the time you will want to listen to local residents and to those who are going to be directly inconvenienced by the changes that you are agreeing. You will want to listen to those who are going to be adversely affected by noise or any rowdyism and anti-social behaviour, and to those who are going to be affected because people are—and I will use the phrase that I used in a previous group of amendments—urinating and defecating on their property. Let us not pretend it will not happen; that is what will happen, particularly in the absence of proper policing resources and local authority enforcement resources.

I ask the Minister again: what are the estimated extra costs that local authorities will face in their enforcement role to manage these changes and what will be the cost of extra policing? That is why my noble friend Lady Wilcox of Newport’s amendment is so important. Clause 5(6) gives the Secretary of State the power to publish conditions for pavement licences. Will local authorities and their associations be consulted about those conditions? Will they be given the enforcement resources they need? Again, what guarantees are there that the police will have the officers to ensure that suitable order is maintained as a result of the licences?

Finally, I have signed Amendments 22 and 23 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, which acknowledge that, as a result of these licences, people will spill over into the highway or be forced to do so to get around those availing themselves of what is provided. Public safety may require that parking and speed limits be adjusted. That would require the highway authority, which may well not be the same as the local authority, to make adjustments. Similarly, transport operators—those running the bus services—may have to alter their schedules or make minor adjustments to routes to ensure that people are safe. The amendments would require that such discussions took place. Again, they seem modest, and I hope that the Minister can accept them.