Defence Command Paper Refresh
Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Sterling of Plaistow(1 year, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Goldie (Con)
First, I thank the noble Lord for his kind comments about the Secretary of State. When we talk about budget, we deal with two things: reality, and what this Government believe is a reasonable and attainable objective. Let me deal with the reality. Defence has received an increase to its budget in the face of very difficult economic circumstances. That is recognition of the seriousness with which this Government take the current security environment and their responsibility to protect the nation and help it prosper.
The Prime Minister said—this is a Conservative Prime Minister speaking; I cannot speak for any other party—that we are committed to increased spending over the longer term to 2.5% of GDP as fiscal and economic circumstances allow. I accept, up to a point, the noble Lord’s proposition that that is subjective. It is subjective in the sense that the Government will have to interpret how the economy is performing and what the fiscal regime looks like. As the noble Lord is aware, we are trying to reduce the debt and bring inflation down, and I am confident that we can reach a position of economic stability in due course, but that reflects a Conservative Government’s pledge, and we want to hold good to it. That is partly because we believe in defence, and secondly because we think it is an attainable aspiration.
As I said in response to an earlier question, the equipment plan has been published. The noble Lord raised the training of F35 pilots. We have contracted out some training in order to seek help from Italy. That is happening but we maintain our operational obligations and we would never compromise the safety of our pilots or the professionalism of their status by doing anything that underperformed or threatened their training integrity. I am satisfied that the training regime is perfectly satisfactory; it is robust and is delivering the skills we need.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)
When you read this document, it is clear that it is vastly superior to the last one, published some two or three years ago. The thinking, ideas and viewpoints are extremely interesting. The sentence that captured my imagination is at the very beginning, in the ministerial foreword, and I shall read it out if I may.
“We must address increasingly complex and diverse threats, by maximising our own growing but ultimately finite resources, which necessitates ruthless”—
I repeat: “ruthless”—
“prioritisation and improved productivity”.
I spent many decades in defence and I have to say that I totally agree with the comments, particularly from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on how we deal in practice with productivity but particularly procurement. The noble Baroness was very polite. Our procurement in this country—in many departments, not just the Ministry of Defence—is shocking. It is a terrible thing to have to say that in practice, in everything I have been involved in—in the ministry and in other ministries —the way we do procurement and the quality of the people doing it is really letting us down in a major way.
The real problem is this. If we had a message tonight from No. 10 that at 4 pm tomorrow we will be at war, the speed of change would be extraordinary and everybody, from all parties, would pull together. The speed of change, in procurement and everything else, would go through the roof. I know the Minister is saying that the Government are doing this and that, but in two years’ time, if we have not demonstrated that we really can deliver, I am afraid that the rest of the world will ignore us on the basis that we are no longer a country to contend with.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I appreciate the significant experience in these commercial matters that my noble friend brings to these discussions. Interestingly, I had highlighted the passage he read because it attracted my attention when I was flagging the folder myself—I say to the noble Lord, Lord Robertson—not relying on one of my officials to do it, because I like to read as I go.
As I have admitted before in this Chamber, the history of procurement for the MoD has, at times, been a very unhappy one. The Secretary of State in the other place yesterday did not disguise that. He pointed out that procurement has been confronted and beset by difficulties, not over three years or 10 years but probably over 15 or 20 years or maybe even more. What we have seen in the MoD—and he referred to this—is that, on the basis of Public Accounts Committees, Defence Select Committees and observations from the National Audit Office, we have already taken significant steps to improve procurement. I referred to some of them earlier. I think this document—and my noble friend was very complimentary about it—spells out where we think we have to go in terms of efficiency of procurement, improved effectiveness of procurement and certainly increased productivity from defence. That is the course on which we are bound.
We are valued as one of the most important partners in NATO. I would say in relation to my noble friend’s last point that I think the United Kingdom is seen as a very serious, significant defence contributor. I know on my travels abroad the warmth and the interest that accompanies any visits we make to other countries. They want to know about us. They want to know what we are doing and how we are doing it, and they certainly want to be associated with us. They feel that we exercise influence, but underpinning that is a credible defence capability, not least our nuclear deterrent.
It has been a very interesting opportunity to hear views on this Defence Command Paper refresh. I am very grateful to everyone who has contributed questions and I end by saying that it has been a pleasure to support my right honourable friend Ben Wallace as Secretary of State and it remains an honour for me—at least for the moment—to be a Minister in the MoD.
National Shipbuilding Strategy
Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Sterling of Plaistow(2 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Goldie (Con)
Yes, and I say to the noble Lord that, of course, the strategy is a cross-government endeavour. It is being delivered by the National Shipbuilding Office, which sits within the MoD, but because it has been designed in partnership with industry to give UK shipbuilders and suppliers confidence to invest in people, facilities and research and development, its implementation will be led by the NSO and will reach across the United Kingdom. Therefore, it is anticipated that there will be engagement with the devolved Administrations, and I referred earlier to the industry-led shipbuilding enterprise for growth body. Between them, we can look forward to a much more cohesive consultation with the industry right across the United Kingdom.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)
I thank my noble friend very much for the strategy. Governments and MoDs have had many of these over many years. This has taken some seven years following discussions that Sir John Parker, Admiral Hine and I had, having built quite a few hundred ships, and having made mistakes and learned from them. It is now with us today. What is needed now is the funded plan to deliver a continuous, 30-year pipeline of shipbuilding across the UK—not cost-plus and not guaranteed if performing badly. That will allow industry to get to the right size, drive efficiency and become truly competitive. Authority, money, a plan and cross-party support for a modern digital engineering workforce can deliver. I finish by saying that I would like this country to remain the most powerful member of NATO in Europe, and I am dead against President Macron’s idea for a European army.
Baroness Goldie (Con)
I thank my noble friend for his universally acknowledged authoritative comments on this. We all know that he has played a significant part in the development of the shipbuilding industry in the UK, for which we thank him. I do not think there is much appetite for a European army from the United Kingdom; we have as a cornerstone of our defence capability in Euro-Atlantic security our membership of NATO, and that is our primary obligation.
Defence: UK Military Status
Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Sterling of Plaistow
Baroness Goldie
As I indicated in my earlier response and in my very recent response to the noble and gallant Lord on the Cross Benches, the Government are absolutely clear what their defence objectives are. They are categorically committed to retaining the UK’s position as a tier one which, while not definable in specific terms, is shorthand for a state at the forefront of having a military which is among the world’s elite. That is what the United Kingdom possesses.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)
My Lords, since her famous Lancaster House speech, the Prime Minister has said many times that we are going to go global—that we will re-emerge and re-engage, taking our proper place in the years to come. In the last year a great deal of work has been done and we know what the answers are. The savings that have been made are causing cuts which are completely undermining the integrity of our armed services. Does the Minister agree that at this moment the one thing we know is that our American friends, who will be our key allies in the future, do not believe that we will have the capability to run alongside them as their key ally in dealing with difficult world circumstances in the future?
Baroness Goldie
I do not completely agree with my noble friend. I think that the United Kingdom Government’s record is sound and there is evidence to support that assessment. That is not to say that there will not be challenges in the future—we know that there will be. However, we are also very aware that the United States has been, and is, a significant contributor to NATO and it has specifically confirmed adherence to Article 5 of NATO. Therefore, the United States is an important presence in all of this. I reiterate to my noble friend that I do not desire to suggest—nor do I think that anyone else, including my noble friend, would desire to suggest—that the UK is becoming weak-kneed in defence. Nothing could be further from the truth. We want to have influence, capability and clout, and we have no intention of renouncing any of those things.
National Shipbuilding Strategy
Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Sterling of Plaistow(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Goldie
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell, raises two interesting points. On the back of the defence reviews, there is more clarity about budget. No one is pretending that budget is an easy subject—it is not—but, equally, there is a responsibility to take seriously, with regard to one of our primary services, the Royal Navy, the recommendations of Sir John Parker, and that is what the Government are endeavouring to do. The whole point about having a naval facility is that we cannot have a kind of naval facility; we have to have one that is relevant to the needs of the current age. Sir John Parker has greatly assisted in identifying not only what that should be but how we do it.
The Type 31e will be a different kind of vessel and will have an innovatory, modular type of design. It will be specifically built to introduce a flexibility that we hope will be attractive to potential export customers. The expectation in the industry is that that is a reasonable assessment, and it will be rigorously prosecuted by both the Government and the shipbuilding industry.
Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)
My Lords, I very much welcome this announcement. As some of your Lordships will be aware, I had a project done by King’s College London on the advantages of sovereign purchases in this country. It will give a huge amount of business to a large number of small suppliers, apart from the major companies we are talking about. From the point of view of how successful it will be, taking into consideration the points made by noble Lords, Sir John and I worked together for many years, building ships all over the world. I will make two points. First, if you are going to deliver well, you cannot have interference—too many cooks in the kitchen—as regards what you should or should not be doing. Secondly, can we do it? Do we have expertise in this country to do it? Unquestionably, yes, we do. A great deal of that expertise today is in design firms. One of the biggest problems we have had in the past in this country is that we have “prototypitis”—we go on trying to do it. That has happened, and I am afraid that, frankly, Type 26 is an extremely good example of it.
On the points which have been made by other noble Peers here, will it be enough? Many of us have said in previous debates on defence that, unquestionably, it will not. Following Brexit, the Queen’s Speech and the Prime Minister’s speeches, we are going global again—we are going back to our old responsibilities worldwide. That means presence; you need presence if you are to be seen to have hard power. I do not believe that the number of those frigates or workhorses—call them whatever you want—will be enough. When we are talking about the time it will take, we need many more. I would like to see us coming up to at least 25 of those frigates in years to come.
Finally, if you are really going to get an industry going in this country, the only way it happens from a business point of view and everything else we are involved in is that you have to have continuity. They have to know that shipping orders will be given for the next five, 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. That is how you build up the expertise, knowledge and resources to be able to do it. However, having said that, I very much welcome this announcement. If we can get our act together to get more moneys for the armed services, which are absolutely vital, and if we can get the people to join us—this will be key in the future—that will be marvellous.
Baroness Goldie
I thank my noble friend very much for making a number of helpful observations. There is the idea that you can have too many cooks and maybe that is what plagued previous processes and procedures. What Sir John Parker recommends is a new clarity, a focus and a simplicity so that everybody knows exactly how the whole business of procurement is to proceed.
A very important point is how we sustain our shipbuilding industry in the United Kingdom. Coming from Scotland, I know that there have undoubtedly been anxious moments over the past few decades, and the commissions by the Ministry of Defence for the Clyde shipyards have been of huge importance. Interestingly, many shipyards in the United Kingdom have managed to diversify, taking on other forms of engineering activity to make them slightly less reliant on Royal Naval contracts. That is a healthy development because, as the Statement identified, we want to try to protect the shipyards from the troughs and peaks of when Royal Naval tenders are available and when they are not.
Going back to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, raised and the general matter of budget, I can say only that the defence budget is growing year on year. It is very important that against that background—certainly in relation to the whole area of the procurement of vessels for the Royal Navy—we know exactly what we are trying to do and how the structure is going to work, and it is important that the shipbuilding industry knows that as well. That is why I think that today’s Statement and announcement are a watershed in how the United Kingdom embarks upon the procurement of these naval vessels.
As to what the optimum or desirable number of vessels is at any given time, I doubt that that is an issue on which there will ever be agreement. However, I think that the commitments given by the Government, particularly regarding the baseline of frigates, are very important, and in conjunction with the two new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, not to mention our submarine presence, that all amounts to a significant and important naval defence capability.