Armed Forces: Troop Levels

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Thursday 21st September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend is quite correct that NATO has been on a journey of modernisation and transformation, and I think it is a very important journey. The combination of the new NATO force model, the defence investment pledge that was agreed at Vilnius and the NATO political guidance for 2023, in which the UK was a leading influence, represent a modernised, more muscular NATO, to which the UK pledges a full spectrum of capabilities. That includes nuclear, offensive cyber, special forces and space capabilities. For example, the UK was the first ally to offer offensive cyber capabilities to NATO.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, like the men and women of the Armed Forces, the Minister has a great can-do attitude, which I admire. But is it not plain to any observer of events that there is a chronic discord between our foreign policy ambitions and the operational capability of our Armed Forces? We know that we have the smallest Army since the Napoleonic period. We have a tiny fleet. We have a shortage of aircraft, to the extent that we have an aircraft carrier that has only eight planes on it in its operations. Is it not time to have a genuine strategic defence review, in an attempt to bring our ambitions into line with our operational capability? Otherwise, we will just delude ourselves, as well as trying to delude others.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Well, I am not in the business of delusion, and I hope noble Lords will accept that. I think the integrated review, and then the integrated review refresh, followed by the defence Command Paper refresh, do actually align what our strategic policy objectives in terms of our foreign policy are, and the defence Command Paper refresh begins to fill out how MoD will support these objectives. We actually have two aircraft carriers which are the envy of many other global powers. When we put our F35s on to them, contrary to popular perception, what we put on to the aircraft carriers is the aircraft capability we need for the deployment the carrier is on. I said earlier that the capability in MoD may be just about unrecognisable to many people who were familiar with a different format. But to take the platitude that is often trotted out that we have the smallest Army since Napoleon, well, no wonder—in the time of Napoleon and Wellington, we sent thousands of people to the front line to be slaughtered or injured. Now, with technology, we thankfully do not have to do that. Future Soldier encompasses that very different vision and concept for how a modern military operates.

Army Foundation College: Welfare Inspection Regime

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Thursday 11th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that clearly very knowledgeable assessment of what happens at the foundation college. I will simply repeat an excerpt from the Ofsted report:

“Recruits are emphatic about the high standards of care and welfare at AFC. They report that there is no bullying at the college and that they are confident that permanent staff would deal firmly and promptly with any incidents that may arise”.


My noble friend is right that the college enables people coming from a diverse variety of backgrounds, many of them disadvantaged, to learn skills and be provided with training and opportunities that will greatly assist them, not just in relation to a career in the Army but later on in life, because the Army is an engine for social mobility moulding young people like that to be the very best they can be.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the Minister for the Armed Forces who oversaw the introduction of the foundation college, so some people may think I am biased, but I agree entirely with the noble Lord who has just spoken. Does the Minister agree that Ofsted is not generally renowned for overgenerosity—particularly in the light of recent events, it is the opposite that it is accused of—so when one of the institutions in our Armed Forces is regarded by it as outstanding, we should take a degree of pride in that? Will the Minister take some comfort from the fact that, whatever the past travails, there has been a marked change, and pass our congratulations on to the staff, the students and the young soldiers who will form the backbone of the future British Army?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I congratulate the noble Lord on his vision in creating the foundation college, which has been an extremely important development for the Army. What happens in this Chamber resonates well beyond it, and I know that the noble Lord’s very welcome and apposite words in relation to the college, its governance, its staff and the young people themselves will be very positively received.

AUKUS Defence Partnership

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am not an engineer or a naval technical expert on ship build, but I would say that he is quite right. There is now a repository of skills and experience that will contribute greatly to how this type of submarine is designed. It has already been established, because it is now being known as SSN-AUKUS, that it takes us a step further than where we originally thought that we would be with a successor to Astute. Those aggregated skills are very important, and I am sure that they will be put to very valuable effect in determining the final design of the submarine.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My noble friend Admiral Lord West, while welcoming the Statement, said—and I noted this carefully—that it was a very brave decision. If any of my civil servants or military advisers had said, “Minister, this is a very brave decision”, I would probably have avoided it. That has been given substance by the lack of anything concrete in terms of cost. On an enterprise of this size, there must be some idea of the ballpark figures. We already have the example of HS2. I am not going to go down that track—no pun intended—but there is a figure in the public domain, mentioned by my noble friend Lord Browne, of $245 billion over 30 years. That is a substantial amount of money, and it will be even more substantial when inevitably, like all procurement in the Ministry of Defence, it increases over the next 30 years. Can the Minister have a stab at it again and tell us the realm of possibility on which this decision was taken? It cannot have been taken without Ministers having any idea of how much it is going to cost.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

While the noble Lord’s noble friend Lord Coaker has remained positive about this, as his right honourable friend in the other place did, I am slightly disappointed at the rather despondent demeanour of the noble Lord, Lord Reid. This has been universally regarded as one of the most important and exciting announcements for UK defence and our Royal Navy capability that we have seen in decades. This is a hugely important development. I am in no doubt whatsoever that the Government have made the right decision to proceed with this. It is a tribute to the United Kingdom that Australia and the United States thought that we were a valuable and reliable partner to bring into this.

On the cost, I will not stand here uttering figures which I have no foundation to justify, however much the noble Lord might want to tempt me into doing that. We cannot put a precise figure on the cost of building one SSN-AUKUS submarine. It is a decades-long programme. The final figure will depend on a number of factors, and it will include the final design, how many we build and when we build them. We recognise in terms of cost that this is a hugely important commitment, but we also have no hesitation in saying that, for the security of the country and our ability to contribute with Australia and the United States to a more globally secure world, it is absolutely the right decision to take.

Nuclear Weapons: Failsafe Review

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Indeed. I reassure your Lordships that the Government are fully committed to maintaining that independent minimum credible nuclear deterrent based on a continuous at-sea deterrence posture. We do not anticipate any challenge to the transition from Vanguard to Dreadnought.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not expect the Minister to comment in detail, as she mentioned—of course not—but, in general, she will be aware that on several occasions in the past, human override has averted potentially catastrophic nuclear weapons use. The point that has been made is not about the safety of those systems themselves, in engineering terms, but, given the encroaching autonomy of decision- making throughout industry, including in the military, the complexity of the interrelationship between them, and the increasing reliance on artificial intelligence, the dangers of averting that by human override are constantly being eroded. So, while the Minister cannot comment in detail, will she accept that very great danger and assure us that the highest priority is being given to seeing that that human override—the decision by human beings—is not being undermined by the complexity and the increasing use of autonomous, digital-based systems when it comes to nuclear weapons?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a very important question. We are cognisant of—we are certainly not complacent about—the swiftly changing picture of threat or the swiftly changing and challenging situation of artificial intelligence. With reference to the core of the noble Lord’s question, we will ensure that, regardless of any use of AI in our strategic systems, human political control of our nuclear weapons is maintained at all times, and we strongly encourage other nuclear states to make a similar commitment. While I cannot go into detail, the noble Lord will be aware that there are a number of very robust procedures that would stop either an unauthorised intervention or a state intervention.

Military Personnel: Strike Action Cover

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 19th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I can reassure my noble friend that the Ministry of Defence is acutely conscious of the sacrifice our Armed Forces are making this winter to ensure the smooth running of essential public services amid widespread industrial action. As he may be aware, arrangements already exist to compensate Armed Forces personnel for short-notice disruption and the changing of leave arrangements, because that is not uncommon. They are compensated for it as a part of the military X-factor that they receive in their pay, and a number of other benefits have been given to our Armed Forces personnel. However, I have great sympathy with the point made my noble friend, and decisions are currently under consideration by the Government, although none have yet been made.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the announcement that consideration will be given to additional payments for members of the Armed Forces. At a time when there is widespread—and potentially even more widespread—industrial action, and the British Army is at its lowest since the Napoleonic wars, will the Minister weigh heavily on the words of the Chief of the Defence Staff, who said that we should not fall into a practice of regarding the Armed Forces as surplus labour to cover every contingency? In that context, will she—as someone who I know has the respect of the Armed Forces—distance herself from the comments this morning from Jacob Rees-Mogg, paraphrased in the Daily Mail as telling the Armed Forces to shut up and just do as they are told? That is no way for a former failed Minister to speak to people who have pledged their lives—even until death—for this country. I hope she will make it plain that that is not the view of Ministers.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I have detected frequently in this Chamber—I do not think it necessary to seek that reassurance again—that there is huge respect and affection for our Armed Forces, a respect and affection which I personally try to embody and observe. While we are committed as a Government to protecting people from strike disruption during a challenging winter, we are sensible to the fact that repeated employment of our Armed Forces in routine domestic tasks, for which civil authorities are responsible, is not a viable long-term solution. There, I agree with the noble Lord. We are also very conscious of our public obligation to keep core services running. That is why I applaud the Armed Forces who are responding to the MACA request and will do their level best to mitigate the suffering that is currently so widespread.

Ukraine: Weapons

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Thursday 16th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, just to be clear, referring back to my noble friend Lord West’s Question, the Minister has said three times that the MoD is “fully engaged”. I am absolutely sure that the MoD is fully engaged; it always is. But the question is: have any contracts been let?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I do not have such specific information before me to give to the noble Lord, but I will make inquiries. If there is any illumination I can provide to him, I will happily do that.

Integrated Review: Defence Command Paper

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Tuesday 23rd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for raising something of critical importance because we in this Chamber are all aware that the MoD depends greatly upon the presences that we have throughout the United Kingdom. I mentioned Lossiemouth in Morayshire earlier, and of course we also have the submarine headquarters base at Faslane, RAF Valley in Wales and, obviously, numerous significant presences in England and, to some extent, in Northern Ireland. My noble friend is absolutely correct: we need these strategic presences within the union, but, actually, I argue that these nations need the MoD. For example, the spread of personnel in Scotland—regulars, reserves and civilians—totals just over 18,500; in Wales, that spread totals 4,940, and in Northern Ireland it is 4,620. That is before we look at jobs supported by industry expenditure: in Scotland there are 12,400, in Wales there are 5,700 and in Northern Ireland there are 500. That denotes how invaluable the devolved nations are to the MoD, as is the whole of the UK, including England—and it denotes how they benefit from that MoD investment in them.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, we have always maintained that the purpose of our nuclear weapons is nuclear deterrence, not war fighting. That is reflected initially on page 76 of the Command Paper, but it goes on to say:

“However, we reserve the right to review this assurance if the future threat of weapons of mass destruction, such as chemical and biological capabilities, or emerging technologies”—


I assume that this includes cyber—

“that could have a comparable impact, makes it necessary.”

In other words, in three sentences, we have shifted to a position where we are apparently prepared to use nuclear weapons in response to any form of aggression. Does the Minister understand that huge step away from deterrence and towards war fighting with nuclear weapons? Does she realise the Pandora’s box that that will open if the Government proceed?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The protocols surrounding nuclear weapons have been widely understood. They exist as a deterrent and to do that job in the hope that they never have to be used. I said earlier that the test of a deterrent is just that: has it deterred what it is supposed to? The current deterrent has done that for well over 60 years. It is the deterrent aspect that is all-important, and that makes it an effective presence within our MoD capability.

Covid-19: Security Risks

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister not recognise that, despite their efforts, the Government’s response to the pandemic has been marked by inadequacy in certain areas—in pre-planning, logistics, supplies, collective action and speed of reaction? Those are all central characteristics of NATO’s strengths and expertise. Why, then, would the Government not make more use of NATO’s expertise and assistance?

[Baroness Goldie]

I reassure the noble Lord that the response of the MoD to the Covid-19 challenge has been highly effective and very impressive, and there is widespread evidence of that not just across the United Kingdom but in relation to our international contribution. He will have seen from news footage in the UK exactly how much, how effectively and how positively the MoD contribution has been received.

Nuclear Weapons

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I am slightly confused. Traditionally, our nuclear deterrent was funded from the Treasury. Is that still the case, or is it now part of the MoD costs? That has a tremendous bearing on the original Question—whether it would have a knock-on effect on procurement. I am happy for her to consult the Minister beside her.

[Baroness Goldie]

I do not want to get lost in or confuse your Lordships with accountancy semantics. My understanding is that the initial money comes from the Treasury but goes into the budget of the MoD, which then has to meet its spend obligations.

D-day Landings Memorial: Education

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 13th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I never cease to be surprised by the ingenuity of the noble Lord in insinuating into his questions important matters of our maritime capability. The content of programmes within the education centre will be for the trustees to determine. On his wider point, he will be aware that, more than 70 years on, we face changed circumstances and different challenges, and we have the advantage of vastly improved technology. The ships that we are now constructing are state-of-the-art in terms of technology. They are flexible, resilient ships, with versatile purpose and versatile use. The Government can be congratulated on a very innovative programme of naval shipbuilding.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare a personal interest. Like many others, my father took part in the battle for Normandy in June 1944. Given all the events of the past few years, is it not particularly important that the educational aspects of this very worthy venture should stress the awful cost of conflict in Europe for ourselves and others on the European continent? This was the fourth great war to have taken place in a century, with a terrible cost in blood and for families. Should it not remind us that whatever our exact constitutional arrangements with the other European countries, it is in all our interests to work as closely as possible, for ourselves and for future generations?

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord makes a point of fundamental importance, which nobody could disagree with. The mere physical presence of the memorial at Ver-sur-Mer, and the proposed education centre, are in themselves testament to what happens when countries engage in war. Again, as for the content of any programmes, I am sure that the trustees will take careful note of what the noble Lord has said.