Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, I really like Amendment 41A but I believe the money should go to the local authority in which the property is based, to be used for further housing benefit or whatever else is needed. Local authorities are very hard pressed for funds and all the local communities benefit from anything that goes to them.

It is not at all unreasonable to ask for a certain amount to be repaid. It would be just,

“1% for each year of occupation”—

or is it 1/20th? That is where I am slightly lost. If you occupy a property for 20 years and pay 1% for each year does that mean—my maths are not good enough to work this out—that you have reduced the whole lot at the end of 20 years? If you have not stayed the whole 20 years do you pass it on to the next person, so say after five years that person has a 15% discount, which they can then keep for 15 years? And will they lose that when they pass on the property? I believe that is what is intended. It seems to be the fairest amendment which has been put forward on this.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I accept entirely that the recovery could be by the local authority rather than the Government.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment, and I declare an interest in that I have a daughter who has multiple sclerosis and is a board member of the Habinteg Housing Association. It does marvellous work in providing lifetime homes.

The importance of this has been so stressed by so many people tonight that I do not really need to comment on it. I have other amendments to speak on and noble Lords will be tired of listening to me. However, I strongly support everything that the noble Lord, Lord Best, and other speakers have said and hope the Government will see sense on this.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, for moving this amendment, which we wholeheartedly support. If there were any doubt as to whether we were going to support it, praying in aid Nye Bevan just about did it for us. I welcome my noble friend Lady Wilkins back to the House and acknowledge her knowledgeable contribution on an issue on which she has campaigned over a long time. It is good that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, are on the same page as well.

We support the review of housing standards: a lot of good work has come out of it. However, one of the consequences, as we have heard, was that lifetime home standards and wheelchair-accessible standards have become optional extras. That is really the issue before us today. The noble Lord, Lord Best, has probed with a series of questions and I hope that the nature of those questions means that the Minister has ready and satisfactory replies to them all.

I draw the Minister’s attention to a couple of paragraphs of the housing review document. On page 6, paragraph 14, it says:

“Unlike other Building Regulations requirements the optional requirements described in the Approved Documents will not be mandatory. They will only be applicable where a local planning authority has put a plan policy in place specifically triggering the application of the optional requirement or nationally described space standard in particular circumstances. Neighbourhood Planning Bodies (and Neighbourhood Development Orders) will only be able to apply the space standard, and not optional requirements”.

Will the Minister tell us why that is the case? Perhaps more importantly, paragraph 21, which looks at applying optional requirements and nationally described standards, states:

“The first step is for a local planning authority to stipulate that an optional requirement or the nationally described space standard applies in that area. As stated already, this must be set in plan policies, which have been subject to normal Plan Examination processes. It would not be appropriate to apply optional requirements or the space standard through supplementary planning guidance, since this is not subject to a sufficient level of scrutiny”.

Have the Government moved on from that, or is that still applicable?

I have one small observation in relation to financial viability and cost. If the additional cost is £500 to £1,000, that is one or two weeks in a care home invested in a home on lifetime standards now. That obviously obviates that, going forward. I hope the Minister can satisfy us on those requirements, because it would be a great shame, given all the progress that has been made on lifetime home standards—particularly in London—if these developments were to push those backwards.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me, but I was a little unclear as to whether she was speaking just to Amendment 47, which has been degrouped, or more generally to the raft of amendments that we will consider. If the noble Baroness is able to clarify that, it would help us to determine how we will proceed.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I will be happy to clarify that. There seems to have been a slight muddle in that the last amendment I had on Clause 33 was meant to be degrouped, but instead only one was degrouped. I am therefore turning this into a slightly longer and wider field because I lost the opportunity to do that on the previous amendment, which was my original intention. I hope that your Lordships will understand that.

Everything is supposed to be perfect until you do it, then you find—well, I advise noble Lords to read it for themselves. It is from Monday 2 February, in the Evening Standard. There is another whole page on the other side about the woman behind the “unhotel revolution” and pseudo hotels—so it is quite a wide issue. It is interesting that the fraud teams are being brought in to look into the whole issue. I had a reply from the treasury officer when I asked him what of these lettings would be tax free. The answer was, “Nothing, except the right to sublet a room in your own house to a lodger for a sum of £4,000 and something—less than £5,000”. That would be the only free opportunity. It is very interesting that the Serious Fraud Office attended a meeting that we had in the House of Commons in January, partly on this issue but on property in general. There is such an opportunity for fraud that it will be very interesting to know who declares what, with no one able to check on anything at all as to who is in these places, with risks of terrorism and fraud or whatever else is going on. People tell me that they find it almost unbearable, the smell of drugs being smoked in the flat above them, because it becomes so intense to have 10 people in one room. Again, are there no restrictions on how many people can fit into one bedroom? I find it hard to believe that you can have 10 people—and this is in three different flats.

I could go on and on, but I do not intend to, because it is late and the House has had a very busy time, with more to follow. I hope that the Minister will be a bit more open about things, as I am very dissatisfied that Questions for a Written Answer have simply not been replied to. I beg to move.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I discussed this amendment to a certain extent at an earlier stage. Therefore, I do not feel I need to say very much, especially so late at night.

The reason for tabling it is that there are little pockets of between two and five acres in between lots of other houses and buildings. I know of some that are described as green belt and are so listed and yet there is a conference centre next to them and huge buildings around them. To my mind, those are infill sites. I do not know the government ruling as to what exactly comprises an infill site, but it seems to me that if you have a small patch of land, whatever its classification, it is not really green belt if it is just a little bit in the middle of places. Yet it might already have all the infrastructure of transport, electricity and the things that are needed for development, and could provide a valuable space for either a children’s home or housing or something of that type. It is for that reason that I move this amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, the issue of green belt is one of those matters which has caused great consternation. Obviously, we will have to await the final version of the NPPF. Of course, it is not for me to defend the NPPF in its current form, but as currently drafted it seems to address what the noble Baroness is in part seeking. The NPPF states that:

“A local planning authority should regard the construction of new buildings as inappropriate in Green Belt. Exceptions to this are: limited infilling in villages, and limited affordable housing for local community needs under policies set out in the Local Plan; or limited infilling or the partial or complete redevelopment of previously developed sites”.

That is envisaged within the NPPF as I understand it.

In terms of the infrastructure, it is not always right that the services and infrastructure exist before, rather than being provided as a consequence or as part of, the development. I understood that it might be implicit in the noble Baroness’s amendment that it needed to be there before, rather than arising as an alternative. Therefore, I struggle to support the amendment in its current form. But the issues around development in the green belt are very important. We need to track what is going to happen and what the final version of the NPPF will be.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment seeks to allow infilling on green belt land if,

“sufficient infrastructure and services exist as to make the development reasonable”.

This test is not related to green belt policy, which is about preserving openness, preventing the unrestricted sprawl of built-up areas and preventing the merger of towns. You could well have land with sufficient infrastructure, but allowing development on it would put at risk the key principles of the green belt policy. In any case, the law already requires determinations under the Planning Acts to be made in accordance with the development plan,

“unless material considerations indicate otherwise”.

Infrastructure is one of the material considerations routinely taken into account by decision-makers in planning cases.

As observed by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the draft national planning policy framework contains the Government’s proposed policies on planning, including the green belt. It includes exceptions, set out in a similar way as current green belt policy, for certain categories of development. For example, it allows for the re-use of buildings, and the extension or replacement of dwellings. It also provides for the infilling or redevelopment of previously developed sites. I believe that these policies provide the flexibility to achieve the outcomes which my noble friend is seeking.

Given that current national policy has delivered a strong level of protection, I do not think it appropriate to make changes to green belt policy through legislative means. If changes are required to green belt policy, they should be carefully considered as part of the ongoing consultation and, if appropriate, taken forward through the framework. I hope that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

That may be the case up to a point. How that works in practice remains to be tested, particularly given the pressures on the inspectors. We shall come to that point in a moment.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that I am old enough to have watched “Cathy Come Home”. I think I did; it was on a black and white television. It was a defining moment in our country. We are at risk of going back to that. These assessments must also be seen in the context of what is happening to housing benefit. We know that many people will be made homeless and that many will be uprooted from their current communities and forced into new ones. Following the point of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, about how robust and up to date those assessments are, they would also need to take account of such movements, which could be very significant.

I very much warmed to the comments of my noble friend Lady Whitaker and the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. The Minister’s response was that there is already a statutory responsibility. However, the reality is that to date it has not delivered for Gypsy and Traveller families. It is right that we should focus on that. It was absolutely commendable of the noble Lord and my noble friend to do so in the course of this debate.

My noble friend Lord Beecham, in supporting the amendment, said that we should look not just at social housing or affordable housing—whatever description we apply to it—but at the private rented sector as well. That is absolutely right: we have to look at all areas, particularly the private rented sector. We know that the formation of households over the next decade will increase—certainly at a faster rate than new homes are projected to be provided. That is the source of some challenge.

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, made the point that it is not just about whether somebody can afford a property but about what they are affording. What is the quality of the home that they are able to access? That is why, like him, I am a great supporter of the social housing sector. I am sure the noble Lord himself remembers council house-building when it took place and Parker Morris standards, with decent garden sizes. That may not be easy for us to return to but it was indicative of a time when we believed that people should be properly and decently housed.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I was very involved in housing when Parker Morris standards were still used—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I should be very interested to learn what the noble Baroness wanted to say about Parker Morris standards. Perhaps we can speak in the break.

My understanding is that the real difference between us here is whether this matter should be dealt with in guidance, through the NPPF or in the Bill. We believe that it is such a fundamental issue that it should be in the Bill. Indeed, if we are on the same page regarding what we want to achieve, I do not see why the Government cannot accede to having this as an integral part of the legislation. It is a key and fundamental—

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I am told that I am not out of order and that I can therefore ask the noble Lord a question. Is he aware that when the Parker Morris standards were in force, the standard of all the local authority housing, as it was at that time—social housing has widened since then with housing associations —was way above that produced by any commercial developer? I have heard noble Lords in this Chamber say the reverse of that, but that is not the case. Parker Morris was the town clerk of Westminster City Council. His standards were too high and could not continue to be afforded. Is the noble Lord aware of that?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Indeed. I am certainly aware of the challenges that that produced but I hang on to the point that it was a good period for the provision of housing, with people, whatever their means, having the chance to live in decent houses in good neighbourhoods. Indeed, for 20-odd years I had the privilege of representing a patch on Luton council built just after the Second World War to those standards and it was a great place. However, that is a bit of a diversion from the amendments before us, and that is my fault.

As I said, the difference between us is whether this matter should be in the Bill or otherwise. I accept that the Government are not going to be moved on this. We will continue to make the arguments but, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, makes a very interesting case. I do not propose to follow him into the detail of ground 8, but I shall comment on the fact that we are going through a period of some upheaval in relation to housing benefit, which brings a particular poignancy to the point which he raises. If we look at what is on the cards, we know that local housing allowance rates are now set at the 30th percentile of local market rents. We know that a cap on the local housing allowance rate has been introduced. We know that under the Welfare Reform Bill, local housing allowances are going to be uprated by CPI in future rather than by reference to what is happening to rents. We know that there is an increase in the non-dependant deduction, and we know that there are changes to the shared room rate as well. Each of those things creates some challenges in the administration of housing benefit.

Moreover, we are on the cusp of having something called universal benefit, and all the housing benefits will eventually be paid through that process but at a time when the Government are seeking to uncouple the administration of housing benefit from council tax benefit. The practicalities of that present a real challenge, because we know that lots of councils will have contracted out those joint arrangements and how you unpick and administer them is a really challenging issue—quite apart from the issue of whether they are going to be direct payments or how the payment of housing support is going to flow through. We know what the Government’s answer is going to be because we have read it in the book that was presented to us, and I doubt that that has changed over the weeks since that appeared. The point made by the noble Lord seems to me to be especially relevant at this time because of this great upheaval around housing benefit.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I would like to ask a question about this amendment, which I am not entirely clear about. I have been told recently by people who have had court possession orders and eviction notices served on them that that does not really put them out of anything until the bailiffs come in. What is the position if the court grants a possession order but the bailiffs have not been instructed? I understand that there is usually quite a time lag between those two events and that the housing benefit comes through in that time, particularly when it has been delayed. How would that work in relation to those two different procedures?

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I think it is a bit unfair to suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was going to weary the Committee. I say to noble Lords that if the issue is a big one and they have other routes for having a debate, why put down an amendment? When amendments go down, we all spend time trying to get our minds around what the issues are so that we can respond. It wastes our time as well.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

We had every intention of debating it and, as noble Lords will know, I complained about having to wait day after day in the hope of getting to this amendment. Yesterday it was quite clear that we were running out of time. This Bill is terribly important and it is important that we get to Report stage. It was because of the degree of importance that we decided to take action and seek an assurance from the Minister that we would be guaranteed sufficient time to debate it on Report. It will be debated then.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I shall speak briefly to Amendment 156 concerning the removal of time limits on enforcement. I am not sure whether this is exactly what I was aiming for because I certainly would not want to do anything which would make the enforcement last forever. However, I am quite shocked by the enforcement procedures that have been put in place close to where I am in London. The council has put an enforcement order on a conservation area, but nothing has ever happened. The people have put in French windows and large terraces, and the council was successful in getting an enforcement order. I do not know whether the owners live abroad and I do not know why it has not been possible to get anything done about it, but I wonder whether it might be that despite having the orders, you run out of time and nothing can be done. Perhaps the Minister could clarify whether all those enforcement orders last for ever or only for the time limit within which you can apply for enforcement against something. I am concerned that if a breach has occurred and enforcement action is taken but no result is achieved, the person concerned will get away with it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we have Amendments 156A and 156B in this group, which relate to penalty levels. I thank again the RTPI, which welcomes the increase in penalty level proposed in the Bill but considers that it should be even higher. This, it is argued, will help concentrate the minds of magistrates and help focus on the potential seriousness of offences. Amendment 156A is proposed by way of probing the rationale behind the level set by the Government. Equally probing is the amendment to Clause 110(2)(b), which relates to land situated in Wales. Doubtless there is an extensive and constitutional reason why there is a difference between levels of penalty in England and Wales. Perhaps the Minister could let us know how that works.

On government Amendment 155C, it is a bit odd to serve a notice on somebody and then write them a letter and say, “Well, in a sense, we didn’t mean it”. It seems rather a bizarre solution to an issue which I accept has to be dealt with. I wonder whether there is not a more elegant way of avoiding serving the notice on the landlord in the first instance. There may be other ramifications of not doing so, but to serve a notice and then to say, “Well, don’t worry—we’re not going to prosecute”, seems rather an odd thing for government to do.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord McKenzie of Luton

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I, too, support the statement of my noble friend Lord Lucas. It is quite appalling that we have made such little progress. My next amendment is Amendment 149. Today is the eighth day that I have come here believing that we have reached Amendment 149. Instead, as I have said to people, I find 50 other amendments piled in before it. I have counted them while I waited through proceedings on the police Bill, and 125 amendments are piled in before me today. Of those, only three groups have simple numbers, and come from before the first day of the Committee. They are original amendments. Others go as far as Amendment 152ZZA. That seems the most far-reaching number that I have found for any of the other amendments. It is unbelievable how many Zs and things can come up in this. This is a terribly important Bill and the rate of progress has been dreadful. It is very important that we deal with this before the Recess because there is so much work to be done before Report. The Minister and those who have moved amendments will need to do a lot a work before we get to Report. We must finish this before we rise. If we have to sit on Thursday, I am only too happy to do so, or I will sit all night on Wednesday. For the Bill to just drift on in the way that it has is a disgrace to the House.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we all share the desire for the Bill to make as speedy a passage through your Lordships’ House as possible. It is not up to us or indeed to the Ministers who support the Bill to arrange these things but for the usual channels. The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, in raising the issue talked about being able to reschedule Tuesday and other days in the week. The noble Lord perhaps ought to be mindful that some of us, not just one of us, have commitments under the Welfare Reform Bill as well, which has its Second Reading. We understand that that is a very important Bill for the Government.

I am very clear that we need to do the job properly in scrutinising this Bill. In so far as it might be alleged that there has been delay, it cannot be laid at our door. I do not believe that the noble Lord did that. We still have a lot to get through: most of the planning stuff, some very important housing stuff and issues around London. Frankly, even if we sat right through the night on Wednesday, I do not see that we would conclude by having one more day, particularly as we must have the Third Reading of the Bill that we just sat through. I do not think it is practical.

I really am opposed to sitting through the night when we are discussing a Bill that has a lot of intricacies in it; a lot of it is complex and technical, and we need to deal with it when we have minds that are still relatively fresh. I do not personally see that it would be a great disaster if we picked this up and concluded it when we are back in September. The key thing is that we should have the time to scrutinise the Bill properly and have the time and opportunity to do it when we are at least not all falling asleep on the Benches.