London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Higgins(13 years, 1 month ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for tabling this amendment, which gives your Lordships the opportunity to consider what the maximum penalty for ticket touting should be. Ultimately, as in all matters of sentencing, this is a matter of judgment. Parliament has to take a view on the severity of the conduct in question and set a level of penalty, which both reflects this and acts as a deterrent to those who might otherwise be tempted to engage in such activity.
I think that there is a general acceptance that the penalty for the touting of Olympic and Paralympic Games tickets, which the 2006 Act created, was insufficient. All the recent evidence is that the truly unique nature of the Olympic and Paralympic Games, and the quite staggering demands among the public for tickets, means that a maximum fine of £5,000 would not be high enough to deter those minded to engage in touting, particularly those connected to organised crime, as the noble Lord has set out. That is why we are seeking in this Bill to increase the maximum penalty to £20,000. That represents a very significant fine and deterrent. For a gang of five people, that could amount to a total fine of £100,000, which is quite a figure that they would need to set in mind against potential profits.
The Government's view is that this increased fine level is sufficient. I do not in any way wish to downplay the menace of ticket touting, still less when organised crime is involved, but your Lordships should bear in mind that it does not of itself involve violence and that, ultimately, those who buy tickets from touts do so out of choice rather than through compulsion. There is also something to be said for consistency in penalties. Currently, the only other ticket touting that is illegal is touting of football tickets under Section 166 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. The maximum penalty for that offence is a fine of £5,000. We are prepared to see a higher penalty for Olympic and Paralympic ticket touting, given the unique nature of the Games, but would not like to see the two penalties so very far out of step.
Compellingly, there is the view of the police, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has quoted, and the views of Assistant Commissioner Chris Allison, when he gave the oral evidence that the noble Lord relayed to us. I think we are covering up some of the grounds of the arguments that were put forward on this. Perhaps I could also say that the assistant commissioner said that if there is,
“evidence that enables us to seize money under”,
the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 then, if it is necessary,
“we will make applications to court to do that as well”.—[Official Report, Commons, London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill Committee, 17/5/11; col. 47.]
The arguments that have come from the police are persuasive. At this point, I pay tribute to the work of the police service in preparing for next year. None of us should underestimate the challenge of keeping the Olympics and Paralympics safe, but we know that police planning is going well and that the service will rise to the challenge. I particularly commend Operation Podium, which is the team in the Metropolitan Police service that seeks to tackle ticket crime. Assistant Commissioner Allison made it very clear that the team will be looking to target ticket touts, and I know that at least one arrest has already been made. Of course, we recognise the argument that we are potentially dealing with serious organised criminals and, in that context, a fine may seem insufficient. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, set that out very clearly. But, of course, a court can only sentence an individual for the particular crime for which he or she is charged, and the punishment must fit that crime. If there is evidence that people are involved in other serious criminality, they can be charged with relevant offences relating to their crimes. So if the police manage to apprehend Mr or Mrs Big, who may be behind large-scale Olympic and Paralympic ticket touting and various other serious crimes, there is plenty of other legislation on the statute book already to deal with whatever other serious crimes the person may be responsible for. Those would not need to feature in the Bill in front of us.
In the light of the clear evidence from the police that the higher penalty created by this Bill is sufficient to deal with the conduct in question, and the fact that they will be able to use other existing legislation to go after the proceeds of Olympic and Paralympic ticket touting, I am not persuaded that we need to legislate for the possibility of custodial sentences. I thank my noble friend Lord Higgins for his contribution and other noble Lords for raising this issue, but I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, my concern is not so much on the issue of organised criminal gangs. I think that we all recognise that serious penalties need to be imposed in that regard. But I am not clear exactly what the situation is in this clause as it stands. Is it the case that, if people who have a ticket that they cannot use simply stand outside the stadium and sell the ticket, they will be committing an offence? As I understand it, the crucial issue is whether the ticket is sold above its face value. Perhaps if Section 31(1)(b) of the Act, concerning selling a ticket,
“otherwise than in accordance with a written authorisation issued by the London Organising Committee”,
was amended on Report so as to read instead, “and above face value”, that would overcome the problem facing people in the circumstances that I have just described. People who have a ticket that they cannot use would not find themselves suddenly open to a fine of £20,000.
London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Higgins
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank my noble friend for that. We will be talking to LOCOG and would hope that we might have further news or details before we come to the Committee stage. I know that a lot of thought went into the balance of access to the Games and the security implications. As a number of noble Lords have said, there are intense security implications over these Games. Getting the balance right is a delicate matter for consideration. Undoubtedly, it will be a subject for further discussion.
The ballot for tickets was also raised. Once again, it is a matter for LOCOG. I am not trying to pass the buck here, but these are not matters for the Government. It was always the difficulty of trying to ensure that the tickets were sold and that we had a really good attendance at events, which has not been the case at some Olympic Games held in other places. It was an astonishing and delightful surprise that the British public was so manifestly enthusiastic when the tickets went on sale. Anyone who had read the media in the run-up to the sale would not necessarily have assumed that people would be so enthusiastic about tickets. Inevitably, with that comes the disappointment of those who were not successful in the ballot. But, once again, I would not wish us to focus entirely on the disappointment and that which has denied people the opportunity of the Games. There will be a number of other opportunities when people will be able to buy tickets for particular events. However, I would stress again that this is not within the remit of the Bill and is a matter for LOCOG.
Lord Higgins
I realise that my noble friend may not be able to give me an answer immediately, but will the name of the purchaser appear on the ticket?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I have not seen a draft ticket and I am not sure how it will be done, but I imagine that the only way would be for the name to appear on the ticket or there is a complicated data system which immediately identifies a ticket with the ticket holder. We will have to ask LOCOG for more details of how it anticipates this will work. This is a major issue which has arisen in the course of the debate which will need to be taken further.
The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, also asked about offshore gambling. The Government agree that there is a real need to address remote gambling regulations. It is a matter perhaps for a wider discussion than purely the Olympics. We may come back to this, but the consultation is ongoing until 9 November as regards the Gambling Act. We hope that we may make some headway and be able to introduce legislation on some aspects of the gambling regulations later in the year.
The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, and others asked about taxis, which I mentioned earlier. TfL and the ODA are aware of the concerns of the black cab and private hire trade, and are having discussions with the relevant trade organisations to ensure that as much information as possible is transmitted. The noble Lord, Lord Higgins, also mentioned the equine legacy at Greenwich, about which I will have to write to him.
My noble friend Lord Higgins and the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, asked whether there will be a ban on roadworks during the Games. I can assure them that there will be a ban on all non-essential roadworks on the ORN during the Games and that all associated barriers will be removed. As much as possible will be put in place for traffic to ensure that priority is given to Olympic people in the ORN and that the general public have as much roadway to get around as possible in order to keep London running.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, spoke with passion about the Olympic site. I congratulate her on the fact that it will be known subsequently as the Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park. I had the enormous pleasure of being shown around by the noble Baroness earlier when the site was perhaps not quite as advanced as it is now, but I came away completely overwhelmed by the immense work that had gone into developing it. I felt excited not only by the iconic buildings but also by the canals, waterways and other buildings, which will be a tremendous legacy once the Games are over. We are extremely grateful to her for all the work that has gone into ensuring that the Olympic site is of enduring advantage and benefit to London after the Games have finished.
My noble friends Lady Doocey and Lord Clement-Jones talked with passion about traffic lanes. There will be great encouragement for all non-essential members of the Olympic family to use public transport. We know that there will be a high demand for public transport. The noble Lord, Lord Pendry, talked about the Jubilee line. Once again, I am quite sure that Transport for London is paying close attention to those public transport routes which get the maximum number of people in and out of the Olympic venues as speedily and efficiently as possible.
My noble friend Lord Patten brought us into the realm of cyberspace and websites. We will almost certainly need to go into this in more detail in Committee, although the finer points of the security side of the Games have been under consideration right from the beginning of the planning. The Cabinet Office leads on co-ordinating cyber capabilities in every aspect—defence, law enforcement, intelligence agencies and so on—and it will take the lead also on countering potential Olympic cyber threats and liaising with the Games authorities in connection with them.
The noble Lord, Lord Pendry, asked about the police enforcing ticket-touting laws. As I said earlier, there will be sufficient police around to do that, and they have confirmed in evidence to another place that they intend to take ticket-touting very seriously and devote appropriate resources to it. The noble Lord also mentioned that hotel prices might become exorbitant during the Games. It is a free market, but we are encouraging the tourism and hospitality industry to make sensible decisions on pricing. VisitBritain and London & Partners, which is the mayor’s promotional agency for the capital, have created a fair pricing and practices charter for UK tourism businesses. We very much hope that tourists in London will not be ripped off by exorbitant prices during the Games. We will keep an eye on this to see that it remains the case throughout.
My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones mentioned the 82,000 people using the ORN. We will certainly come back to issues around traffic lanes and their use in Committee.
My noble friend Lady Heyhoe-Flint, apart from enlightening us about different cricketing activities and other sporting events, which was quite delightful to hear, asked whether advertising regulations would apply to air space. I can confirm that they will apply to air, water and land within the regulated events zone, so I am hopeful that we will not see small planes buzzing around completely unimpeded.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned the sporting legacy, particularly in relation to school sports. I can assure him that the Government are monitoring the situation. If there are further details to be had on that, I shall provide them to him in writing. It is the Government’s firm intention that schools sports should be a beneficiary of the Games when they end. There certainly will be schools activities going on in and around the venues to encourage young people into sporting activities.
I fear that I may have left a number of points unanswered. I will read Hansard carefully and try to sweep up the questions to which I have not responded. At the beginning of this debate, I said that the provisions in the Bill are technical and amending in nature, and serve to ensure that the original intentions behind the London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Act 2006 can be delivered. The commitments given to the IOC on the regulation of advertising and trading, ticket touting and traffic management all play a part in the delivery of a safe, successful and memorable Games. They may not be as exciting as the Games themselves, but they are important as part of the infrastructure. This Bill goes some way to ensure that those assurances can be effectively delivered. It enjoyed cross-party support as it passed through the other place, and I pay tribute to honourable Members in another place whose hard work and vision has contributed to the position we are now in in relation to planning for the Games. I am most grateful to all noble Lords for continuing in the constructive vein of the other place throughout today’s debate, and I look forward very much to further discussions in the Bill’s remaining stages.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand Committee.
Olympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Higgins
Baroness Garden of Frognal
I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words in among that. I am not quite sure where the question was, but if it was whether we agree that sport is an excellent forum for international co-operation, the answer is yes, indeed we do. The Government have some major programmes to encourage sport among young people as well as to support our major adult sporting events.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that some of the finest athletes in the world, particularly long-distance runners, come from areas that are now troubled by war in one form or another? The idea of the truce was that people in those circumstances could get to the Games. Does she accept that we should do everything possible to ensure that good athletes can do so? Will she also recognise that few athletes remain at the top for more than four years and that if they are prevented from attending they have therefore lost a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? Not only are they disappointed, but so are the people who hoped to beat them.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend speaks from his own experience as an Olympic athlete and of course I agree with what he says. We in the UK will do what is in our power to encourage people from disadvantaged countries to attend and compete in the Games. A great deal of that depends on the response from those individual countries as well but, as I have said, that will not stop us trying.
Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Higgins(13 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Higgins
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and declare an interest as patron of Herne Hill Harriers.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, the Olympic Park Legacy Company is responsible for determining the legacy of the Olympic stadium. Subject to its board’s recommendation on the preferred bidder for the stadium being approved by its founder members, the company will move into contractual negotiations with West Ham United Football Club and the London Borough of Newham to agree acceptable terms of lease, based on the bid proposals, which included the retention of a running track.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Does she agree that it would seriously damage Britain's reputation and make it difficult for any other sports to bid successfully for major international events if we did not fulfil the obligations we undertook with the IOC regarding the Olympic legacy? Does she further agree that any contract of this kind for the future of the stadium must ensure that the track remains a permanent—rather than a temporary—feature after the contract is signed, that the facilities for field events remain and, more particularly, that the stadium is available on a regular basis for all major athletic events?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, my noble friend speaks with great authority, having himself been twice a member of the Olympic team. The points he raises are all highly relevant, and they will form part of the negotiations which are under way. On the specific issue of the track being available for other events, should all the recommendations be approved, it would be possible to bid for the 2017 world athletics championships, for which expressions of interest are not expected until March.
Tourism
Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Higgins
Baroness Garden of Frognal
The noble Baroness is quite right; I agree with her once again that culture and the arts are vital. She will also remember that when the coalition Government came into office, they did not inherit the most favourable economic situation, and unfortunate cuts have had to be made in all sorts of areas. Certainly, support is available for the arts and heritage, and major funds are being set up to ensure that we do not lose the treasures of this country.
Lord Higgins
Does my noble friend agree that it is also very important to encourage tourism and sporting events after the Olympics? In that context, will she give an assurance that the Government will do all they can to ensure that an athletics track remains a permanent feature of the Olympic stadium, regardless of to whom it is sold?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My noble friend will be aware that there are extensive plans to ensure that the legacy from the Olympics continues well into the future, and the facilities that have been set up specifically for the Olympics will be of great benefit as the years go by. The track will obviously be an important part of that.