Environment Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Committee stage
Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone has withdrawn, as she is listed twice on this list and will not be speaking in either place, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

A few moments ago the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, referred to this as the core amendment of the Bill. In many ways it is, because the success of the Bill depends upon having a totally independent, vigorous, courageous person who can stand up to any Minister and who has the authority to call the Government properly to account for infringements of an environmental nature. One thinks of the debate we had last week about the pollution of rivers and the ability to fine—the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, in his admirable introduction to his amendment talked about the swingeing fines that have been imposed upon Italy, among other countries.

If the Bill is truly to become a landmark Act of Parliament—again I use those words, which have been used so often—it has to stand the test of time. We are not legislating for the next five years or even for the next 25 years—a figure that has cropped up before. We are legislating to lay the foundations for an environmental system that our grandchildren—in the case of some of us, our great-grandchildren—will depend upon. We cannot be fobbed off with the answer that this is more or less another function of the Secretary of State. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, has spelled out many things—I do not agree with all of them—which are of great importance to us all.

I have some doubts about appointing a person for 10 years; I would prefer the electoral cycle of five years, although emphatically not to coincide with a general election. I would be entirely happy with an appointment for five years, to be renewed for another five years, but not longer. So I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, on the overall length, but we have to be a little cautious about appointing any individual for a 10-year period. Things can go wrong, and it can be very difficult to get rid of people who are not fulfilling their function.

This is a minor point, but I also think we should not rule out Members of your Lordships’ House. We have a number of people who are highly accomplished and who could fulfil such a role. Of course it would be necessary to stand down from active membership of the House, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury, did, but we have provision for that. It is possible to take leave of absence, and if anybody is appointed to a very important position, as the noble Baronesses, Lady Ashton and Lady Amos, were, they do not function as a Member of the House during that period. To rule out somebody by virtue of his or her membership of the House is wrong and unnecessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, hit on many other important points. There has to be a degree of independence. He talked about the Comptroller and Auditor-General as an example on which he has drawn. There has to be independence and vigour and strength—it is crucial.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, in her inimitable way, talked about Report. I say to my noble friend, not in any spirit of threat, that there must be meetings with Members of your Lordships’ House between now and Report, otherwise the Government will get a lot of egg on their face and the possibility of a 1 November deadline will vanish. I do not say that in a threatening spirit and, in particular, I say it in no spirit of animosity towards any of the Ministers concerned, either my noble friend or those in the other place. A number of people, including the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Krebs, have made that point this afternoon. We are not expressing doubt in their sincerity or wisdom, but we are saying that if they are creating something for generations to come, they have to bear certain things in mind. We do not need recent examples to remind us that Ministers do not always end in a blaze of glory.

This is a core amendment. It is something that I, and I am sure others, would like to sit down and discuss with my noble friend before Report. If we can reach agreement by compromise or discussion, it is always better than dividing the House, because if any Bill deserves—needs—the support of Members in all parts of your Lordships’ House, it is this one. The environment we are talking about is ours and, far more important than that, we are legislating for the environment of our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren and beyond, otherwise there is that fear of extinction, about which we talked the other day.

I support the spirit of all these amendments and very much hope that we will be able to come to a collective decision that will enhance the Bill and make it a Bill that has real teeth, with a body created by it that has real teeth and can deal with real problems in a vigorous way.

Immigration

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, are you there? We have had problems contacting you.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

He was there earlier. He spoke on the last Question.

Parliamentary Constituencies Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 8th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I have received a request to ask a short question for elucidation from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I have a very short question for my noble friend, to whom I have listened with great care and considerable sympathy. What can possibly be lost by putting the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom on a similar footing?

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I should inform the House that if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call any other amendments by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with what my noble friend said about the precipitate action of the Liberal Chief Whip at the beginning of the previous debate, which never happened. I say very gently to my noble friend that speaking for 20 minutes or more does not encourage.

I speak here for one main reason. Of course, I am one of those who voted remain, but I have accepted, from the moment of the referendum, that we would come out of the European Union. All that I have been concerned about is how we come out and the terms on which we do so. I deeply resent the fact that certain colleagues—not all, by any means—suggest that we want to go back in. I wish we could, but we cannot. There has been a democratic decision. Only a general election or another referendum—and I do not favour another referendum; I never have—can alter that.

House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 15th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

That the Question be now put.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I have to read this very slowly. I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered to be a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a noble Lord who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, wish to pursue his question?

[Lord Cormack]

I beg to move.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 27th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I will not attempt to emulate the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, by making a Fourth Reading speech, but I will make a couple of brief points. I strongly supported the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, when he introduced his amendment and have spoken many times on this subject in your Lordships’ House. I deeply regret that the Government have not felt able to accept the amendment and commend it to the other place. I echo everything that has been said about the understanding and capacity for listening both of my noble friend Lord Younger, the Minister in your Lordships’ House, and of Mr Jo Johnson, but it is a pity that an opportunity has been lost. I am sure that we will return to this subject, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, possibly in a future immigration Bill.

Although I welcome what the Minister said today and what is in the Commons amendment before us, it does not go far enough. There will be real interest in how the Government are able to produce good statistics. It is 35 years ago almost to the day when a famous BBC reporter in the Falklands said, “I counted them all out, and I counted them all back”. We must start doing that with students, and indeed with all immigrants. However, we must not do anything that damages our reputation—however gently—as a place where students at undergraduate and postgraduate level from all over the world can feel welcome. The more we can do to achieve that welcome the better, and we must do everything we possibly can to make sure that there are no implicit deterrents. I am sorry that after a very good morning where the Government have made some very real concessions, for which we are all extremely grateful, the concession on this particular subject is not as great as it should be. I hope my noble friend on the Front Bench will take note of that and that we will come back before too long with a reinforced Government Front Bench and a new determination to accept the logic of the Hannay amendment.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, from these Benches we strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and endorse everything that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, just said. The noble Lord, Lord Willetts, reminded us of the heady days of coalition when I was his opposite number in this House. I remember the debates that went on between the Secretary of State for BIS and the Home Secretary on this topic: the noble Lord could never get any movement on seeing the illogicality.

What baffles many of us is that the Government reiterate that there is no cap on genuine international students, but then they say, “But we will count them as migrants and we are determined to reduce the number of migrants”. It is incomprehensible that the Government cannot see how very unwelcoming it is to put those things together in sequence. We find it completely baffling that we are not getting any movement on this. We recognise that this issue is probably outside the departmental brief of the Minister, but I echo what has been said already: we hope that very soon there will be movement on this. Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, always speaks with great passion and eloquence on this topic, backed with evidence and facts.

This is probably the last time that I shall speak on the Bill, so I reiterate the very sincere thanks to the Minister, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, and Minister Jo Johnson, to the Bill team and to other colleagues who have been so helpful to us on what has turned out to be a very long and drawn-out discussion on the Bill. The amendments that have come through today have already improved it again. As I said before, it would obviously have been lovely if all our amendments had been accepted, but we recognise that we have actually done a very good job in making this Bill a whole lot better than it was before.

I echo the thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who led a collaboration of the engaged on these issues, made up of Members from these Benches, his Benches, the Cross Benches and occasionally some noble Lords on the Conservative Benches, to try to ensure that we could get the very best possible out of this Bill. I also thank my noble friend Lord Storey, who has been a tower of strength throughout. We have made this Bill much better than when it reached us and I am grateful to the Minister for helping that to happen.

Apprenticeships

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Indeed, discussions are ongoing with the devolved communities to ensure that we have a UK-wide programme. There are border issues as the noble Lord suggests. A lot of the apprenticeships are employer-led. We are increasingly making sure that employers define what they want by way of an apprenticeship and the sort of people they want. We certainly hope that boundaries between Wales and England will be no barrier to any good apprentice getting an opportunity.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of William Morris Craft Fellowship and patron of the Heritage Crafts Association. Will my noble friend recognise how important it is for young people to be encouraged to go into these highly skilled crafts? Will she accept that most of the members of the Heritage Crafts Association are one-man or one-woman businesses? It is extremely difficult for them to take on apprentices, much as they might wish to do so. Some of the crafts are in danger of dying out. Will she do everything that she can to encourage young men and women in our schools and colleges to consider a career in what I call traditional crafts?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I was in no way complacent about youth unemployment. We all know that it is a disastrous start for many young people if they cannot get into a job and into work when they finish their compulsory education. The noble Lord mentioned getting employers more involved. There is now, for instance, a £1,500 start-up to help SMEs get their first apprenticeship scheme going. We have seen 6,800 starts between February and October 2012, and there are a further 12,100 in the pipeline.

As for small and medium-sized enterprises, an increasing number of employers are coming on board and taking on apprenticeships. As for the larger firms, discussions are ongoing with some of the major firms that take significant numbers of apprentices. The noble Lord mentioned BT. There is also BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce. Some very large firms have extraordinarily well established apprenticeship programmes, and the Government are in constant dialogue with them to try to ensure that best practice can be passed on and that it is made as easy as possible for employers to take on apprenticeships. One of our other challenges is to reduce the bureaucracy so that there are no unnecessary disincentives to employers taking on apprenticeships. Of course, more work needs to be done, and we very much look forward to the results of the consultation and to ensuring that we take that implementation forward in the autumn.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, if second innings are being allowed, is my noble friend aware that the William Morris Craft Fellowship is always willing to visit schools and other institutions to encourage young people? Many members of the Heritage Crafts Association are indeed in the position indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Young, in that they are tiny—sometimes one-man or one-woman—businesses. Nevertheless, they are anxious to share their skills and expertise, but they also need help and encouragement of a positive, and indeed financial, nature to take on apprentices and train them fully. Some of these crafts take a long time to master.

Indeed, only two days ago we had a group in the House from the Heritage Crafts Association, including a tailor from Savile Row, a maker of wonderful leather goods and a calligrapher, all of whom are more than willing to do whatever they can to help but are very much in need—not so much the tailor from Savile Row, probably—of assistance and encouragement. Can we look to the Government to take advantage of the offers that are on the table and further assist and encourage these extremely important crafts and craftspeople?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I admire my noble friend’s ability to bring to everyone’s attention the organisations close to his heart. I am quite sure, with the publicity that he has given them, that people will be very anxious to take up those offers.

Telecommunications: Mobile Phone Services

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Monday 18th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I was not aware of that, but using churches in high and rural areas may be a great solution. I am sure that all these considerations are taken into account when deciding where to place the receivers.

[Lord Cormack]

Will we ever again know the bliss of silence?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I assume that that is a rhetorical question.

Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Monday 21st May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

I am sure everybody would welcome the discounts, but would it not also be a good thing to discourage selling of the torch flames?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, that may well be the case, but the torches are actually the property of the people running, and I do not think the Government could get directly involved in that.

As part of the 2012 legacy, we also wish to reverse the decline in sports participation. The Government launched a new youth sport strategy on 10 January with £1 billion of lottery and Exchequer funding. This will mean a much greater focus on young people, particularly 14 to 25 year-olds, and this strategy aims to deliver: consistent growth in sports participation in the 14 to 25 age range and across the adult population; an excellent sporting experience to keep people playing sport; high quality talent development to create a better talent pool and help those with real potential to make the grade; and a growth in participation by people who have disabilities, including the most talented.

The School Games is the Government’s new framework for competitive school sport. It is a key strategy for creating a meaningful sporting legacy from the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games and to increase the number of pupils participating in competitive sport. More than half the schools in England—around 13,000—have signed up, including primary, secondary, special and independent schools. The UK and Brazil, which will host the next summer Olympic and Paralympic Games in 2016, have jointly written to the IOC and to the International Paralympic Committee to ask them to encourage future bidders for the Olympic and Paralympic Games and Youth Olympic Games to have in place a competition structure similar to that of the School Games.

The International Inspiration initiative is delivering on the promise made by my noble friend Lord Coe in Singapore in 2005 to,

“reach young people all over the world and connect them to the inspirational power of the Games, so they are inspired to choose sport”.

The programme develops a series of activities tailored to each country’s needs, to introduce a more systematic approach to delivering sport in school and community settings for all age groups, based on practices that have been successful in the UK. To date, more than 12 million young people in 20 countries have been reached through the International Inspiration programme. Since 2007, the programme has helped train 100,000 teachers, coaches and young leaders. Thanks to the phenomenal efforts of my noble friend Lord Bates, the Olympic Truce has a much higher profile than in previous Games. We look forward to hearing more from him about support for the Truce.

We are not complacent and recognise that challenges still lie ahead in 2012. For example, during the course of the Games we will be hosting 26 simultaneous world championships; converting for the Paralympics and then hosting another 20 events; and coping with millions of extra journeys on our transport systems. However, the omens are good for us to deliver a safe, successful and memorable Olympic and Paralympic Games, with legacy benefits for the whole country.

Before I close, I should note that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, withdrew her name from the speakers list out of courtesy to the House because, with 100 days to go to the Paralympics, she was unable to stay for the whole debate. On behalf of the House, I thank her for observing that courtesy and express appreciation for all her achievements and for her work on the Paralympics, and assure her that she will always be welcome to raise any matter, either inside or outside the Chamber.

The Government acknowledge the work of the previous Administration in the planning and organisation of the Games. We are grateful for the cross-party support in the work that has still to be done, and for the healthy scrutiny from your Lordships, particularly given the levels of Olympic and Paralympic expertise that we have in the House. I look forward to hearing all contributions in the debate, and to the UK delivering a Games of which we can all be proud.

Leveson Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, we are hearing consensus from all sides of the Chamber on that, and I entirely agree with the noble Lord.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, is there not another issue we should be considering: the exact role of special advisers? I cast absolutely no aspersions on Mr Jeremy Hunt, for whom I have a very high regard, but it seems to me that while special advisers have an understandable role in liaising with party politicians and so on, they should not usurp the role of the career civil servant. I believe—I raised this as long ago as the early 1970s in another place—that Governments of all parties have tended to be careless in the way in which they have used special advisers. This is not the first example we have had in the past 12 months. Could we have a review of the exact role, position and duties of special advisers within government departments?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My understanding is that in this case the special adviser was one of a number of people, including officials, who had particular roles in respect to the BSkyB bid—but I hear what my noble friend says and if there are matters I can write to him on, I will do so.

Economy: Tourism

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Cormack

Monday 10th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, we constantly look at the different factors which might inhibit people from coming here. On air passenger duty, the noble Lord may not agree, but aviation is relatively lightly taxed in comparison to other forms of taxation. There is a consultation out for this which we will be looking at closely, and will be hoping to come back before the end of the year to see whether there are factors which might cause a need to look again at air passenger duty.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the millions of tourists who come to enjoy our great heritage assets and our beautiful countryside do not, as a rule, come to admire burgeoning wind farms? In view of the very questionable benefit to our energy supplies that these monstrosities produce, will my noble friend talk to her colleagues in the appropriate departments to ensure that tourism is not killed off by turbines?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, burgeoning wind farms are slightly outside my remit for this Question, and there are those who think they are rather beautiful in particular circumstances. I will leave that question for another day.