Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education (Transfer of Functions etc) Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Committee stage
Thursday 21st November 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I shall also probe whether Clauses 2 and 3 and Schedules 1 to 3 should stand part of the Bill.

At Second Reading, we heard about the importance of skills development to boost economic growth, the gaps that employers face in finding the skills they need to fill vacancies, the continuing complexity of the skills landscape, and the ambition of the Government to meet these challenges. At this point, I thank particularly the Learning and Work Institute and the Association of Colleges for their advice and their perspectives on the Bill. On these Benches, while we accept that the Government have a real commitment to address these issues, we also believe that they need to give Parliament and employers much greater clarity on their plans. The Bill is clear in the door that it closes—the abolition of IfATE—but is silent on the door it opens; that is, Skills England and its powers and accountability. We are left with an interregnum, with the Secretary of State holding all the powers of IfATE and a few more for good measure.

I will try also to explain the logic of my Amendments 32 and 33. Ideally, we would have liked to be debating a much clearer, more detailed Bill and have all the answers to the concerns expressed across the House at Second Reading. I note that in her closing remarks at Second Reading, the Minister committed to setting out the relationship between the Department for Education and Skills England in a publicly available format which will be updated periodically. Even the phrase “updated periodically” begs questions about the clarity and stability of roles and accountability. No doubt the Minister will give us further details on this today.

My amendments suggest solutions on a sliding scale. At one end, we are proposing to stick with the status quo through the stand part notices for Clauses 1 to 3 and the associated schedules; from there, to different degrees of independence and accountability for a new body called Skills England; to, finally, although not in this group of amendments, accepting the Government’s proposals, but with a clear and rigorous reporting requirement to Parliament. At this stage, these are probing amendments.

As we heard at Second Reading, there are genuine concerns about the transfer of IfATE’s powers to the Secretary of State, in terms of compromising the independence with which apprenticeships and wider technical qualifications, including T-levels, are accredited, and in diluting the voice of employers. These concerns are only amplified by later clauses which extend the powers of the Secretary of State beyond those of IfATE to prepare standards without employer input, and remove requirements for regular reviews of technical qualifications and third-party examination of standards. We will, of course, debate these points later in Committee.

The proposed creation of Skills England as an executive agency within the Department for Education, rather than as an independent statutory body, although not part of the Bill, has raised questions about both its autonomy and its effectiveness. More broadly, our stand part notices seek to elicit from the Minister explanations on the following points.

First, why does the Minister believe that this organisational change will be any more effective than the previous 12 changes in the past 50 years?

Secondly, the impact assessment set out that the Government had considered both keeping IfATE as an organisation separate from Skills England and expanding its powers to take on Skills England’s full set of powers. My Amendment 32 attempts to reintroduce this as an option for the Government to consider. It would create an executive agency of the department, which would be called Skills England, and would focus on wider skills strategy, as well as keeping IfATE as an independent body for the accreditation of technical education qualifications and for its other responsibilities.

That amendment has a lot in common with Amendment 21 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, although Amendment 21 would not retain IfATE, as mine would. One can make the case that it is more coherent to have everything in one place, but one can also argue that Skills England has a huge brief and should focus on some of the more urgent priorities, leaving IfATE to continue its good work in setting up clear lines of communication.

It is hard to avoid the conclusions that the Government are knowingly diluting the voices of employers; that they want to have as much control as possible over these qualifications in future; and, importantly, that they are seeking to reorganise the structures to deliver skills reforms rather than getting on with “doing the doing”, which is much needed on the ground. The impact assessment sets out briefly the advantages of the Government’s chosen approach but says almost nothing about the drawbacks of losing an independent, employer-led organisation that the Government acknowledge does an excellent job. It would be most helpful if the Minister could explain in more detail the barriers to doing this and how His Majesty’s Government evaluated the shortcomings of this approach.

Moving along the sliding scale, I turn to Amendment 33, which aims to commit the Government to introducing a draft Bill that would create an independent arm’s-length body, to be called Skills England. I note that organisations such as the St Martin’s Group, which represents employers, training providers and awarding organisations, have been clear in their briefings that it is

“crucial that Skills England’s independence needs to be exerted in statute”.

Given the independence that this would create from the department, we have assumed that IfATE would no longer need to exist. I hope very much that this is something to which the Minister can respond positively.

In my Amendments 32 and 33, we stipulate that the chief executive of Skills England must report to the board of Skills England. It seems extraordinary to have to make this point but noble Lords may have noticed that the job description for the CEO of Skills England made no reference to the board; rather, they report to the relevant director-general in the department. Given the emphasis that the Minister put at Second Reading on the strength and operational independence of the Skills England board and its members, it seems a major drawback that the chief executive of the organisation, on whose board they sit, does not report to it. Could the Minister undertake to reconsider this?

Finally, I turn to my Amendment 42, which I tabled, as the French might say, “pour encourager”. I am hopeful that the Minister will take my other amendment seriously as a way of actively demonstrating her commitment to the independence of Skills England but, failing that, this amendment seeks to sunset this legislation and give the Government time to come back with a Bill that addresses the concerns that we heard at Second Reading—and that we will no doubt hear more of in Committee. I beg to move.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I consider myself encouragée. We on these Benches have some sympathy with these wrecking amendments. We have never supported taking decision-making out of the hands of experts and into the hands of a Secretary of State, whoever he or she may be and however informed and enthusiastic he or she may be about colleges, further education, and technical and vocational qualifications. As I said at Second Reading—I do not apologise for repeating it—politicians are almost always university-educated and may have little understanding of or enthusiasm for the world of skills. I exempt our Minister from this because I know that she cares but, of course, there is no guarantee that she will not be replaced—not for some time, I hope—by a “here today, gone tomorrow” Minister with no knowledge of this sector. These posts do not last, as we all know.

I speak with some knowledge. In the coalition Government, I was appointed Minister for the Olympics and Sport, having never had any interest in sport in my life. At school, I was a fat little bespectacled nerd who was always chosen last for any team. But, given the portfolio, I spent days and weeks of my life learning all there was to know about rugby league—thanks to my noble friend Lord Addington—cricket, hockey and other unmentionables in order to give educated answers to questions. But that is not the same as having a lifelong enthusiasm, and, because Ministers have almost always been educated—surprisingly enough—and can display an astonishing academic superiority, they may look down on practical achievement, as I discovered when I worked in Michael Gove’s team.

We are disappointed, as we always thought of Labour as a party supportive of education in all its guises, yet it has brought forward the damaging VAT on independent schools Bill, which would make us the first country in the world, I believe, to tax education—shame on them—and now this damaging Bill to attack practical education. It is a sad day indeed. We are also bemused that this apparently is the skills Bill, yet there is no mention of skills in it. It might as well have been the flying fish Bill because there is no mention of flying fish either. Some of the amendments in this group try to remedy this, including Amendments 32 and 33 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, which we broadly support.

I will speak to Amendment 21 in this group in the name of my noble friend Lord Storey, who much regrets that he cannot be here today, to which I added my name. We are spelling out what is missing from the Bill—namely, the establishment of a new executive agency to be called Skills England. Our amendment sets out the conditions for Skills England to be established and the need for both Houses to agree proposals. Other, linked amendments have been regrouped for some reason—I had some work today to try to work out where the groupings have changed since yesterday; I am not quite sure why they were—but we still have the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, which seeks to keep some of the duties of IfATE alongside the new body. As IfATE contains many real experts and champions, we feel this is a sensible move and we support it.

We have very strong objections to the power grab by politicians over the experts who really care. We will seek to change this and to convince the Government of the harm that could be done to enhancing the much-needed skills of the country if this goes through unamended. I hope that our listening Minister will appreciate how much is at stake in the Bill and will take note of the very well-intentioned and well-informed amendments that have been tabled.

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[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, there is no mention of awarding bodies in the Bill but, when I worked for City & Guilds, it was part of our role to review qualifications at regular intervals. I wonder why that does not feature anywhere in the Bill and why the Secretary of State is apparently taking over a function that was done very effectively in those days by awarding bodies.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I was delighted to add my name to the Clause 6 stand part notice in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hampton. Like him and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, I am baffled about why the Government do not want to review the approvals of technical education qualifications, published standards and assessment plans at regular intervals. As the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, intimated, it seems that the closer one is to the department and any Secretary of State, the more one will need independent scrutiny to retain the confidence of employers, learners and providers. Obviously, there is a risk that, without that independent oversight, standards of technical qualifications could be eroded or become less relevant than they should be.

Does the Minister agree that Clause 6 potentially introduces conflicts of interest? By removing the requirement for independent oversight, are the Government not placing an undue burden on those directly involved in the design and delivery of standards to act as their own assessors, where they end up marking their own homework? It would be helpful if the Minister could explain to the Committee why the Government do not believe that this level of scrutiny is needed. I absolutely appreciate that, in some areas, the review might be very light-touch—for example, because of the suitability of a set of qualifications—but we have seen how qualifications rise and fall in popularity and relevance over time. As we have heard from a number of noble Lords this afternoon, including the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, there are clear calls from the sector for greater simplification of qualifications.

At Second Reading, the Minister committed to publishing information about the intervals for reviews of different qualifications. I wonder whether she could update the Committee on when that will happen.

Similarly, my Amendment 16 to Clause 7 seeks just to restore the status quo; namely, that the Secretary of State “must”, rather than “may”, make arrangements for an independent third party to carry out an examination of a standard or an apprenticeship assessment plan. As the Committee knows, independent reviews are there to provide feedback to policymakers and training providers by, for example, identifying areas for improvement and best practice. I very much hope that the Minister will consider this amendment and stand part notice positively.

School Inspections: Funding

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The fact that Ofsted is identifying more issues of this type reflects a few different things. Clearly, as in society more broadly, sadly, we do not know whether some of these issues are increasing in volume or whether we are just getting better at identifying them. For the safety of children, it is crucial that Ofsted identifies them, but it is even more important that the schools identify them, and do so early, because Ofsted inspections are periodic and children need to be safe every day.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, the old HMIs used to be viewed by schools as critical friends and were welcomed. Teachers facing an Ofsted inspection now do so with dread, because they fear that they will be criticised above all else. Is there any chance that Ofsted could go back to being friendly in its inspections?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think we have to be a little careful with that kind of generalisation. Like with any inspection, one may well be apprehensive or nervous ahead of it, but 90% of our schools are now good or outstanding, so the outcome for the vast majority of schools is a very good result. I remind the noble Baroness that Ofsted inspectors are almost all either former or serving teachers, head teachers and senior leaders.

Independent Schools

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Monday 18th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the right reverend Prelate. I know of a number of independent schools and their local state schools that are considering just the sort of arrangement that he described.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, many independent schools host the Combined Cadet Force, and 70 independent schools share cadet forces with local state schools. I declare an interest as a former chair of the cadet health check team. The cadets is an excellent way of teaching self-confidence, leadership, resilience and life skills. If the proposed VAT policy sees schools close and lose resources, we may lose those vital collaborations. What can be done to ensure that independent schools can continue to support these excellent cadet programmes?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend behind me said, vote for a Conservative Government—but the noble Baroness might not entirely agree with that, and she is obviously entitled to her views. I absolutely agree with her on the importance of schemes such as the cadets. I was in a school on Friday, where I met a number of cadets, and was very struck by the value of a programme such as that.

Education: 11 to 16 Year-olds

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Thursday 8th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, our committee proved that the curriculum is vastly overloaded with knowledge-based things, does not include enough digital or computing, and in a lot of schools the arts are completely neglected. Nor does it include life skills, so our young people are coming out without the skills they need for the future. So what urgent action will the Government take so that our children have a more enjoyable and much more useful school experience than they are currently having?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I appreciate how alluring it is to talk about some of the wider subjects the noble Baroness mentioned. As she knows, we are developing a cultural education plan that will be launched later this year, and I accept that things such as the IT curriculum maybe do not age as well as some other elements of the curriculum. But, in terms of the way in which we all learn, and children learn, the importance of putting down in our long-term memory a really rich knowledge base from which to apply those skills is critical, and we lose that at our peril.

Education: Advanced British Standard

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Tuesday 17th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I said in my Answer, there will need to be extensive consultation, but we hope to work closely with the Scottish Parliament on this.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, A-levels and T-levels should never be the only options for 16 year-olds. There are many highly talented, creative and practical students with work-based skills which are essential for the economy. Can the Minister reassure us that BTEC vocational qualifications will continue to be available to ensure that these students get their work accredited?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am afraid that I cannot reassure the noble Baroness of that. She will be aware that we have carried out extensive reform of our qualifications and will know that, as of August 2022, we had removed 5,500 qualifications with low or no enrolments. However, we still have the most complicated and duplicative landscape of qualifications in this area —at least 7,000 available qualifications—which we will address through our reform programme.

Schools: Music, Art, Craft and Dance

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Monday 16th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to revitalise music, art, craft and dance, in state schools, and (2) to recruit teachers of these subjects.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to pupils receiving a high-quality cultural education, including in music, art and design and dance. We are investing around £115 million in music and arts up to 2025, in addition to core school budgets. There are over 468,000 full-time equivalent teachers in state-funded schools in England, the highest since the school workforce census began. We are offering £10,000 tax-free initial teacher training bursaries for art and design and music from 2024-25.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that very positive reply. However, one of the very many damaging offshoots of the EBacc and Progress 8 has been to degrade—indeed, in some cases to eliminate —music, dance, art and crafts from state school curricula, but every young person deserves the opportunity to experience and enjoy them. What is more, the arts are major contributors to the nation’s economy. The Minister has mentioned funding; how are the Government funding music hubs? How specifically do the Government intend to recruit teachers for these life-enhancing subjects?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

To put the noble Baroness’s concerns in perspective, I point out that if one takes into account both GCSEs and technical awards, which I know she values, just over half of students—52%—take either a GCSE or technical award. We are funding the music hubs with £79 million per annum for delivery but there is an additional £25 million fund for the purchase of musical instruments. In my Answer I gave an indication of the bursaries we will be providing to encourage recruitment.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Report stage
Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, ahead of speaking to the amendments tabled, I thank all noble Lords across the Chamber for their contributions and the support they have expressed, both for this Bill and for the wider programme to transform opportunities to build qualifications over one’s lifetime. We heard from the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden and Lady Wilcox, about the importance of filling skills gaps so that the economy can grow. I thank both my noble friend Lord Willetts and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, for their support and acknowledgement that the Bill will open new opportunities for learners.

Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, would define a credit as equivalent to “10 notional learning hours” in the Bill. The Government believe that it is crucial that the definitions of credits in the fee limit calculations align to standard practice in the sector—a point the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, made. The Government plan to set out this detail in regulations, rather than in primary legislation. The power to do so is provided for in new paragraph 1B of Schedule 2 to the Higher Education and Research Act 2017, introduced through Clause 1 of this Bill. Specifying learning hours in secondary rather than primary legislation means that providers that might choose to use a different number of learning hours per credit will simply have those courses treated as non-credit-bearing for fee limit purposes. If we took the approach of this amendment, those same providers could instead be considered in breach of the fee limit rules as a whole, with all the regulatory consequences that might bring. I am sure that is not what the noble Baroness intends with her amendment.

To be clear, as I think the noble Baroness’s amendment seeks to do, the Government do not intend to change the number of learning hours in a credit unless standards in the sector change. Learning hours are, and should continue to be, based on sector-led standards. Regulations on learning hours will follow the affirmative resolution procedure, so Parliament will get the opportunity to debate and formally approve any changes to those regulations.

Amendment 2 and Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, would require the Secretary of State to publish a review of the impact of the future Act on the progress of the rollout of the lifelong loan entitlement. Amendment 4 sets out that such a review must be published ahead of regulations being laid, and Amendment 2 would require the review to be presented to Parliament before the end of 2026. I thank my noble friend Lord Willetts for being the very eloquent messenger of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. We absolutely agree with her point and that made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Amendment 2 specifies that the review should include the impact of the credit-based method on sharia-compliant loans and skills gaps.

I thank your Lordships for these amendments. The Government agree with the sentiment behind them, if such sentiment seeks the department’s commitment to monitoring the impact of these measures on the transformation of student finance under the lifelong loan entitlement. As your Lordships will be aware, the Government published an impact assessment alongside the Bill upon its introduction in the other place in February this year. Subsequently, the department published an updated and more extensive impact assessment of the lifelong loan entitlement, more broadly, alongside the publication of the consultation response in March. As was committed to in the impact assessment published in March, and in accordance with the Better Regulation Framework, a more detailed assessment of impacts will be published at the point when the Government lay the necessary secondary legislation to implement the lifelong loan entitlement fully. Therefore, the Government already intend to publish an updated impact assessment covering all aspects of the LLE, including the measures in the Bill, when regulations are laid.

In addition, parliamentary accountability mechanisms are already in place to review Acts of Parliament and the impact that they have on policy, including post-legislative scrutiny in particular, but not exclusively. There will be continued scrutiny of the LLE and the impact of these measures in both this place and the other place, including the role of the Education Select Committee in scrutinising the work of the department.

I will just rest for a moment on the point about post-legislative scrutiny, which I understand the noble Baronesses raised at the briefing yesterday. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, will be aware that under the current government guidance and as proposed in 2008, between three to five years after an Act is passed it should be reviewed by the government department and Parliament. I can assure the noble Baroness that the Government will seek to work together with the relevant Select Committee in line with that guidance. However, while we recognise the importance of reviewing the implementation, it should be not just of this Act but of the reform of the system—and again, I can commit that the Government would like to see that review happen.

On the specific details within the amendments themselves, the timing requirement in Amendment 4 would require a review of the impact of the Bill on the rollout of the LLE prior to regulations being laid. I want to be clear here that any impact assessment which is conducted ahead of laying regulations would not be any different to the impact assessment currently available for the Bill and the consultation process. The next point at which impacts can be assessed is when the regulations are laid and, as stated, the Government are committed to publishing an impact assessment at that time.

Amendment 2 relates to the impact of the credit-based method on sharia-compliant loans and skills gaps. First, it is important to note that fee limits are set on courses, not on students. Therefore, the credit-based method—like the current fee limit system—will not depend on any characteristics of individual students. All students on a course will have their fees determined in line with the same fee limit rules, regardless of whether they use their LLE, self-fund, or use alternative loan arrangements.

I take this opportunity to assure your Lordships that the Government remain committed to delivering an alternative student finance product compatible with Islamic finance principles. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, questioned why it was taking so long. I will not rehearse all the arguments, but I think she will remember that we touched on this in Committee, and it really is linked to the complexity of implementation. Every element that changes within the student finance systems needs to be mirrored for the alternative finance product, so it is a more complicated process and is contingent, and it has to follow the building of the systems which will allow us to deliver the new approach.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, questioned our commitment to being able to deliver by 2025. I remind the House of the measures that we set out in the letter that I sent your Lordships on this point following Grand Committee. I am pleased to confirm that in August, the Student Loans Company commenced delivery planning for alternative student finance, and it is supported on this phase of work by experts in Islamic finance, the Islamic Finance Council UK. I continue to meet on a quarterly basis with the Student Loans Company, the Islamic Finance Council UK, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, Stephen Timms MP and representatives from the Islamic community to discuss the steps the Government are taking to deliver alternative student finance as swiftly as possible. Because of the delays there have been, we need to be as transparent as possible to make sure that we build or rebuild trust with the community that we really will deliver on this. I will provide a further update on alternative student finance later this year.

On skills gaps, in response to the LLE consultation, the Government made it clear that they will be taking a phased approach to modular funding, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, reminded the House, focusing on higher technical courses which have the clearest employer value. It is important to note that fee limits are not a means to address skills gaps; they are to ensure that students have affordable access to higher education provision provided by those higher education providers who receive government funding to support course delivery.

Finally, it is worth noting that the LLE policy is much wider than the provisions of the Bill, and as such, the reviews sought through these amendments would focus narrowly on fee limits and not on the impact of the LLE as a whole.

For these reasons, while the department understands the sentiment behind these amendments, they would either have unintended consequences or would be unnecessary, as there will already be mechanisms in place to provide such review. Therefore, the Government cannot accept these amendments and I hope that your Lordships will withdraw or not move them.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and her reassurance, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Berkeley, for their comments on this short debate.

Of course, we are all committed to encouraging lifelong learning—it is essential for the well-being of the country and of individuals—and we all want to make sure that it is encouraged. As I say, we continue to express concern that adults may not prepared to take on loans for this but, obviously, only time will tell. I thank the Minister for her remarks about sharia finance, because it is a concern that Muslim students are deterred from entering higher education because they cannot get the means to do so. With that, I thank all your Lordships and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, we have here a fairly formidable list of things, all of them important. I want to focus on subsection (2)(j) in the new clause proposed by Amendment 3, which concerns:

“the financial sustainability of the tertiary education sector”.

We note that student fees have not gone up in all the years they have been there and that universities now face intense financial pressures. I note that, in Committee, the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Johnson, put forward a suggestion that student fees should rise with inflation; that has not gone further but I wonder whether the Minister could give some succour to university vice-chancellors, who are desperately worried about how on earth they can balance their books as costs go up but income does not.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I now turn to Amendment 3, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Twycross, Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox of Newport, and the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish an annual review of the operation of the provisions of this Act and specifies several areas that the review must cover, including learner uptake, access to higher education and financial sustainability in tertiary education more broadly.

As mentioned in relation to Amendments 2 and 4, the Government published an impact assessment upon the introduction of this Bill in February and an extensive impact assessment of the lifelong loan entitlement more broadly in March. The Government intend to publish an updated impact assessment covering all aspects of the LLE, including the measures in this Bill, when regulations are laid.

There will be continued scrutiny of the Bill and the LLE via existing parliamentary accountability mechanisms, for example post-legislative scrutiny and the Education Select Committee. In addition, there are already systems by which the areas mentioned in this amendment are monitored. I will take each area in turn to provide reassurances as to the existing work being undertaken in these areas and the mechanisms in place for review.

In relation to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, about three to five years, I was speaking specifically about post-legislative scrutiny. It is in the Cabinet Office guidance from 2008—a period that I imagine the noble Baroness might support. Obviously, as I have just listed, there are a number of other mechanisms for scrutiny.

The amendment lists a number of areas relating to uptake. I want to take this opportunity to refer noble Lords to the publications produced by the Higher Education Statistics Agency, which will continue to include data on learner uptake and enrolments. For example, the Higher Education Statistics Agency website allows anyone to view information about higher education student enrolments broken down by year, level of study, higher education provider, subject, mode of study and more. High-level national results are also published in its annual statistical bulletin.

Regarding uptake of modular and part-time study, the Government expect to see a shift in how, what and when people study as the LLE provides support for alternatives to full-time study. For example, Universities UK polling in 2020 on modular study indicated that 82% of prospective students polled who were either unemployed, at risk of unemployment or looking to learn a new skill would be keen to study individual modules of a university degree.

Turning to access, tackling inequality in higher education is a central part of the Office for Students’ mission. The OfS shares information through its access and participation data dashboard, which allows it and the public, alongside registered universities and colleges, to identify gaps between groups. The OfS also maintains an equality of opportunity risk register, which identifies key sector-level risks to equality of opportunity in higher education and highlights the student groups that are most affected by each one.

The Government recognise the importance of supporting access, which is why maintenance loans will be available for all eligible courses and modules that require in-person attendance under the LLE, as will targeted support grants such as the disabled students’ allowance and the childcare grant. The impact assessment published alongside this Bill notes that learners who will particularly benefit from the introduction of fee limits for short courses and modules are more likely to be older, female, from ethnic minority backgrounds or from lower socioeconomic groups.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Monday 10th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her willingness to discuss issues in the Bill with all interested noble Lords. I have added my name to Amendment 1, for all the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. For these provisions to succeed, close co-operation and consultation with higher education and indeed other awarding organisations are crucial.

This is a small Bill with considerable limits. We had hoped to table amendments to ensure that careers information, advice and guidance were available to any of those wishing to take advantage of the provisions of the Bill, but we were told that that was out of scope. I fear that other of our concerns may also turn out to be categorised in that way.

There are a great many unknowns in the Bill. It is a matter of great concern that the number of adults over 21 accessing higher-level skills has fallen dramatically over a number of years. One reason is the lack of maintenance support—also, I fear, out of scope. The majority of part-time students do not have access to maintenance support and that can be a serious disincentive for them, so can the Minister say whether any thought has been given to maintenance loans—or, better still, grants—to enable the provisions of the Bill to succeed? I guess that this, again, will be out of scope.

As the Minister is aware, the Liberal Democrats are not convinced that large cohorts of adult learners will be keen to take on debt, and the lifelong learning entitlement is indeed a debt. We propose a skills wallet, putting money into learners’ pockets to enhance their skills learning and competence at three stages of their careers. We argue that that money would be rapidly recouped by the enhanced earning capacity of those who took advantage of it. We know that many adults are loath to take on additional debt, particularly in these times of economic difficulties. We will support any amendments calling for reviews to see how successful the offer of loans and debt is to adults.

I am not sure whether the Minister answered those concerns at Second Reading but obviously now we have to concentrate on the amendments tabled, which largely centre on clarification of what is or is not included in the Bill. We can only hope that the Bill has the desired effect. The country is woefully short of people with the skills that the economy needs and, if more adults can be encouraged to acquire those skills, we shall all benefit. However, it is a very little Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, also in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Garden of Frognal, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, and Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox of Newport and Lady Thornton, which would require the Government to consult relevant stakeholders and others before, first, setting out which method should be used to calculate fee limits and, secondly, determining the nature and extent of credit-differentiated activity and the number of credits associated with it.

The Government intend for all courses offered under the lifelong loan entitlement, the LLE, to use the new credit-based method for calculating fee limits in order to create a consistent and unified fee limit system. That policy has been designed in consultation with relevant higher education sector stakeholders. I agree with the noble Baroness opposite that it is extremely important to take account of their views. That is exactly what the Government have done in designing this policy.

The Government intend to retain the ability to set fee limits using the current yearly system, as well as the new credit-based system, but would use this ability only by exception. The Government do not currently anticipate any courses to use the fixed method from 2025 and are confident that all courses can use the credit-based method. The Government concluded their consultation on the LLE on 6 May last year. The consultation included a question on whether any courses should continue to be funded per academic year under the LLE rather than according to the number of credits.

Through the consultation, the Government understand that some courses, such as postgraduate certificates in education or nursing degrees, may not be suited to having fee limits set using provider-assigned credit values. This is due to variations in how different providers assign credits to these courses, which could lead to variable fee limit outcomes. For those courses, the intention is to set fee limits using a consistent rate of 120 credits per year for full-time courses, with other values for other intensities. That will enable those courses to use the new credit-based method while retaining parity with the current per-year system.

In relation to credit-differentiated activity, the Government want to ensure that periods of sandwich placement and study abroad continue to be subject to lower fee limits. In the current system, these lower limits are applied to full academic years, which makes them incompatible with the per-credit system. To enable those lower limits within the credit-based method, the Bill introduces the term “credit-differentiated activity”. This will mean that substantial periods of sandwich placement and study abroad can have their lower fee limits applied accurately even when they do not conform to full academic years. Regulations will set out details on how this system will work, including a mechanism to enable credit-differentiated activities to work for non-credit-bearing placements.

I can also announce that, in the autumn of this year, the Government will publish further detail of the fee limits regulations. This will give the sector and the public an opportunity to scrutinise the detail and plan accordingly for the introduction of the LLE in 2025, as well as ensuring that the Government can receive feedback on their proposals prior to the laying of regulations. This will include detail on the maximum and default credit values for different course types.

In conclusion, given that consultation has already taken place and that further engagements with the sector will take place as part of the pathway to the LLE’s delivery, the Government cannot support these amendments.

Universities: Impact of Industrial Action on Students

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Obviously, the noble Baroness brings many years of expertise to this matter, but I think that employers in universities and other sectors of the economy are suffering great penalties—financial, reputational and in terms of their relationships with their customers—which have a considerable impact on them.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I entirely accept that the Office for Students has overall responsibility for this issue, but, as we have heard, Ministers have a responsibility too. Is she saying that there is nothing at all that Ministers can do to try to mediate or to help in this dispute?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

What I am saying is that we established the Office for Students to ensure that students’ interests are respected and upheld. The Government have no direct role in relation to the Universities Superannuation Scheme beyond the legislation that applies to all workplace pension schemes as regulated by the Pensions Regulator.

SEND and Alternative Provision

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I really do not accept the premise of the noble Lord’s first statement. I am sure he would not want us to implement everything tomorrow and then find that it is not having the impact we want. We live in a world where we have to make sure that this works in practice; hence the nine regional expert partnerships where we will be testing everything. As I already mentioned, we have already made reforms in terms of teacher training; we have already increased our expenditure by 50% since 2019; we have already massively increased the capital budget and delivered more places; we have already started to increase the number of educational psychologists; and we are already delivering qualified SENCOs for early years pupils. So, there is a great deal happening that will help that year 7 child before they leave school, and I hope the noble Lord accepts that.

As for forcing children into mainstream, and forcing the funding to follow them, I just think it is not the approach that we are taking. It is not that we do not take this seriously or that we do not have grave concerns about children who are excluded from school and never return: those are key metrics that we will be tracking, but we need to work with people and make sure that we deliver for those children. As always, we will be looking at the areas that are doing this brilliantly today, learning from them and working with areas that have perhaps not yet reached that level of practice and supporting them to deliver for those children. I share the noble Lord’s concerns about those very children.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, a lot of the Statement is welcome, but it does seem to be jam tomorrow. I have two questions. The first is that children with special educational needs learn differently: what efforts are being made to ensure that their teachers understand that while they do not have to work harder, they do have to work more smartly to understand the different ways in which SEND pupils learn? Secondly, Scope has found that SEND pupils are twice as likely to be unemployed as non-disabled people, so what are the Government doing to give young people with SEND the skills and opportunities to enable them to be employed?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government absolutely recognise the point the noble Baroness raises. We are already providing professional development focused on special educational needs and disabilities; we have online training; we run live webinars; we offer peer mentoring for school and college staff through our universal services programme; and we aim to reach at least 70% of schools and FE colleges each year until 2025, while also expanding the assistive technology pilot, which is expanding training to increase staff confidence in using assistive technology. In my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Wyld, I touched on some of the measures that we are taking to support people with disabilities and additional needs into the workforce.

Family: Protective Effect

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend knows that working to strengthen families is a key priority across several government departments and although there is not currently a designated Minister, we will be actively considering this. We share my noble friend’s aspiration to see family hubs across the country and it is crucial that we deliver really well in the selected local authorities, so we will be building on the evidence and learning from this investment to improve services across the country.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

Following on from the right reverend Prelate’s Question, the commissioner highlighted that nearly all the children her team helps have significant mental health issues and struggle to access timely and consistent support from CAMHS, so will the Government seriously tackle better access to mental health services as a priority to prevent these problems escalating?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

A significant part of the investment we are making in family hubs and the Start for Life programme is specifically related to mental health. Some £100 million of the almost £302 million is for parent-infant mental health support, starting at the earliest possible opportunity.

Education: Philosophy

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It is difficult to make direct comparisons. I would certainly say that the level of public service in this country, both formally and informally through all our charities and volunteers, is of the highest standard. Many of the basic elements included in the teaching of philosophy are in not only our citizenship curriculum but our religious education curriculum.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, when I was at a French primary school many years ago, philosophy was taught at all stages in French schools, as the noble Lord just said. I do not think it did us any harm. With today’s students apparently really reluctant to discuss anything with which they disagree, might it be time to introduce philosophy into schools to broaden minds? It could be difficult to find teachers, but surely the plethora of PPE graduates coming into Parliament could be encouraged to go back and teach one of their many subjects in schools?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In a serious vein, we know that our schools have tremendous responsibilities in terms of catching up and supporting children, particularly disadvantaged children, following the pandemic’s impact on them. The Government have made a commitment not to change the national curriculum. We need to make sure that the curriculum works for our children.

Schools: Citizenship Education

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be aware that we are continuing to focus our bursaries on English baccalaureate subjects, particularly those experiencing teacher shortages, to secure as many applicants as possible in areas where schools will devote most of the teaching time. Citizenship trainee teachers are eligible for a tuition fee loan and a maintenance loan to support them.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, if we wish our young people to emerge from school with skills for life, citizenship education is surely essential. Following on from the previous question, what progress are the Government making in recruiting citizenship teachers, who are in very short supply?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness will know that, currently, the data does not allow us to identify that specifically in relation to initial teacher training. We have got the data on the number of citizenship teachers, which has been broadly stable over the last five years. I point out to the House that the number of children doing citizenship as a GCSE last summer was up by 10%.

British Baccalaureate

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Tuesday 21st June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness has highlighted the issue of the shortage of modern languages teachers. She will be aware that we have taken a number of actions in this regard, including putting them on the shortage occupation list.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

Another great point in the education commission’s recommendations—forgive me if I read it out—is this:

“An ‘electives premium’ for all schools to be spent on activities including drama, music, dance and sport”,


which are so sadly missing in state schools these days,

“and a National Citizen Service experience for every pupil, with volunteering and outdoor pursuits expeditions to ensure that the co-curricular activities enjoyed by the most advantaged become available to all.”

What a brilliant idea. How will the Government take this forward?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are already taking it forward. The department is investing around £115 million a year in cultural education over three years, on top of schools funding. We are also publishing a national plan for music education, thanks to the great leadership of my noble friend Lady Fleet, and will publish a cultural education plan in 2023. We are supporting the national youth guarantee in relation to citizenship opportunities.

Apprenticeship Levy Scheme

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Thursday 16th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely reassure the noble Earl that the department is actively engaging with all key sectors, including the creative sector. On the specifics, obviously the apprenticeship model is push and pull. The department is delivering what employers are asking for, but we need employers to respond to that across every sector.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, what efforts is the department making to get schools to know about apprenticeships and go into them? Currently, schools are measured largely on GCSEs, A-levels and university entrants. When will they be able to celebrate their apprenticeship leavers with the same enthusiasm as they celebrate their university entrants?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Baroness will be aware from our debate last night, it is not the Government’s plan to micromanage schools in terms of how they celebrate. We are promoting apprenticeships in schools and colleges through our ASK programme—the Apprenticeship Support and Knowledge programme— the Get the Jump programme and the Skills for Life programme. She may have seen some of the materials from Get the Jump recently, which were very engaging.

Special Educational Needs and Disabilities Review

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point. Given that this is a consultation, I really encourage her to share that as part of her consultation response so that we can take it into account in our plans going forward.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, following on from the noble Baroness, I do not think that the Minister entirely answered the point about initial teacher training. What is being done in such training to ensure that every new teacher is equipped to recognise special educational needs? There is early and accurate identification of need, but they can do that only if they are trained to recognise the different types of disability that children might have.

The other thing I want to ask about concerns the new statutory SEND partnership. How will this plan differ from the plan that is in existence at the moment for children’s health and care plans? Can the Minister explain that too?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I understand why the noble Baroness talks about initial teacher training, although she will be aware that it is outwith the scope of this Green Paper. Our wider vision for teachers is that they should have opportunities for professional development at every stage of their career, whether that is initial teacher training, early career development or beyond. We will consult on creating a SENCO NPQ, which will give teachers who wish to develop in that area an opportunity to do so.

The noble Baroness also asked about the new approach. Some of the difference will be around clarity. First, the new approach brings together special educational needs and disabilities and alternative provision. As the noble Baroness knows, one of the things the pandemic high- lighted was the number of children in AP with special educational needs and disabilities, so we want to bring those together. We want absolute clarity around standards of provision and on roles and responsibilities. We also want much clearer accountability and the partnership to work in a coherent way, including with the partners I mentioned in response to an earlier question.

Foreign Languages: Economic Value

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. The FCDO has some 800 specially trained linguists qualified in 46 languages, operating in 111 posts around the world. This figure includes almost 80 heads of mission.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, speaking other languages is very good for warding off Alzheimer’s, as well as playing a significant part in international trade, which is the point of this Question, so it is a win-win. Are the Government still serious about ensuring that the UK can compete on a global stage post Brexit? If so, how will they measure the success of the measures they are taking to ensure that the woeful decline in modern language learning stops and is turned around?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not have time to answer the noble Baroness’s question in full, but I remind her that the uptake of French GSCE is slightly up between 2017 and 2021, Spanish is up very substantially from 85,000 students to 109,000, and 41,000 participants in the Turing scheme, 48% from disadvantaged backgrounds, have been allocated funding this year.

Education: Return in January

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Thursday 6th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I wish a happy new year from these Benches to everyone who is here. I shall try not to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Watson, has said, but on many of these issues we are singing from the same hymn sheet. There is much to welcome in this Statement, and I must start by paying tribute to our wonderful teachers who have pulled out all the stops and worked horrendous hours to try to supply interesting learning online to their students. I have a teacher daughter, and she was working absolutely horrendous hours during that time.

Teachers have been at the sharp end, a much sharper end than where Ministers have been. I, too, am delighted that two MPs have answered the call to arms by returning to the classroom, but I am disappointed that teachers who have stepped away from the classroom were, I understand, advised to contact supply agencies, not their local schools. Can the Minister explain this? It is likely to deter many willing ex-teachers. We recognise that having teachers is essential and that their subject expertise is less important, although many subjects will suffer without professional expertise. I think I have probably been away from the classroom for too long to offer my old skills, but I will never forget my supply teaching days, which included a woodwork lesson in a room surrounded by lethal tools and large angry boys who realised that I was not going to be qualified to let them loose with practical work. I was lucky to get out alive on that occasion, but here I am today with the help of general knowledge quizzes, mental maths tests and an instinct for survival. I hope that ex-teachers who return to the classroom are not faced with such situations today.

We warmly welcome the policy to keep education settings open. There is much evidence of the great harm done to children and young people deprived of classroom teaching. Children need communal learning experiences and social interaction to develop the best from education. Sitting alone talking to a screen is no substitute.

On the provision of lateral flow tests, what assurances can the Minister give that schools will not be hit, as much of the country has been hit, by shortages? We are lucky here that the Bishops’ Bar seems to have supplies, as I drew a blank trying to find a chemist or an online supplier which would let me have tests yesterday. Will schools and colleges have priority bookings? Where should they send pupils if they run out and pupils cannot be tested at home? What is being done about those who peddle misinformation on vaccines? Will the Government bring in exclusion zones around schools so that those messages are not heard by our young people? Can the Minister say something about the catch-up programme and, as the noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked, the position about mock exams and real exams in the summer? Can entrants be assured of exams in person?

We, too, are concerned at the Secretary of State’s defence of the very belated announcement of only 8,000 air purifiers for more than 300,000 classrooms in England in which he said that they do not need them. Will the Government publish the data from the CO₂ monitors that shows that only 8,000 classrooms need them? When will they arrive at schools? How many classrooms will one unit service? Opening windows in this weather is likely to lead to very chilled students, but proper ventilation is a key to battling Covid. Can the Minister also say why the department is recommending Dyson air purifiers when there are far cheaper ones available on the market and Dyson has demonstrated his loyalty to the country by taking his workforce overseas? Are there not British-based companies which would welcome this business?

On face masks, which will obviously impact teachers’ and students’ ability to communicate but which I recognise are probably a necessary evil, can the Minister say what provision is being made for deaf or hard-of-hearing students who normally lip-read? I have a deaf friend who has found life very difficult trying to understand anything that has been said by mask-wearing people. Does the Minister have proposals for such people?

We all recognise the pressures on education in this unprecedented situation and we will do all we can to support government measures where we can, but many teachers, parents and children will be thinking and saying that this is too little and too late. Time will tell how effective the Government’s measures have been. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their good wishes for 2022 and offer my good wishes to the whole House. I echo the sentiments of the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, about the extraordinary job that our teachers have done, and I know the noble Lord, Lord Watson, shares that sentiment.

I will respond to the points the noble Lords raised. The noble Lord, Lord Watson, started by asking about early years and post-school education. Guidance has been provided to all educational settings, including early years, further education and higher education. The testing capacity that we have set aside for all in education applies to those settings also.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, referred to the absence rate among the teaching workforce, which was around 8% at the end of last term. It is slightly higher at the moment, at around 8.5%. I think the noble Lord is right that we should expect to see it rise, which is why we have encouraged schools to think about flexible ways of delivering the curriculum, with an absolute emphasis on trying to keep children in classrooms. We know that about 99% of primary schools opened at the beginning of this term. We are just cleansing the data on secondary schools, because they had a number of inset and testing days, which makes it slightly more complicated to analyse. I will be happy to update the House when we have that data.

The noble Lord asked about the Bradford study in relation to ventilation. That trial is being funded by UKHSA through the Bradford Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust’s research centre. The results of the study are expected in October 2022. More broadly, the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked about the justification for 8,000 ventilators and why we are using Dyson. If I may, I think the noble Baroness was quite ungenerous about the role that Dyson has played during the pandemic. She will remember, and I am sure will acknowledge, the extraordinary work it did to supply ventilators in ICUs. Dyson is one of the suppliers the department is using but, in addition to the 8,000 units, there is a marketplace for schools that feel they need additional units, through which a range of suppliers are providing equipment. The 8,000 figure comes from the data from the 350,000 CO₂ monitors that we supplied, as promised, last term, which shows that additional ventilation needs in some spaces can be addressed through opening a window, but other spaces need extra support, hence the air purification equipment.

I will try to clarify the situation in relation to Ofsted. As the noble Lord said, we have suspended Ofsted inspections for the first week of term. We have also very much encouraged schools which are suffering particularly high levels of staff absence and which have an Ofsted inspection due to ask for a deferral of that inspection. We would expect that to be looked on very generously. In relation to staff, my understanding is that there will be no extraction of staff from schools and that this does not relate just to head teachers, to whom the noble Lord referred. However, all Ofsted inspections relating to safeguarding are continuing, for obvious reasons.

Both noble Lords asked about the situation with exams. There was nothing in the Statement about exams because there is nothing new on exams; our intentions in relation to exams remain unchanged. The lack of reference to BTECs has absolutely nothing to do with a lack or low level of respect—I think those were the noble Lord’s words—on the part of the department or its Ministers.

In relation to the use of supply agencies for those returning to the classroom, that of course does not prevent retired teachers contacting a local school. I am sure the noble Baroness heard the same interview with Sir Michael Wilshaw that I heard, when he talked about going back to his local school, but it is fair to say that supply agencies will know where needs are greatest. We have extended the time for the Covid work- force fund so that the costs of using supply teachers are covered.

The noble Baroness asked whether I could give an assurance about the availability of tests. Having listened to the debate, not in your Lordships’ House but in the other place and in the media, this seems to be an area where there is real misunderstanding. For year 7 and above pupils and staff, we have a separate supply of test kits. Schools were informed in November, then reminded in December, to order tests for testing at the beginning of this term; we delivered around 31 million tests to schools, early years settings, colleges and universities in the weeks commencing 6 and 13 December in readiness for that testing. We received a further 17.6 million orders for test kits from schools between 8 and 28 December, and those will be delivered by 14 January. If schools find that they have run out of test kits, for whatever reason, there is an emergency line and those deliveries are normally turned around in 48 hours. Any education setting can place a new order for lateral flow devices 10 calendar days after its previous order has been confirmed.

Misinformation, which the noble Baroness raised, is extremely troubling and something that we are concerned about. She will remember that it was debated extensively during the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. The police have powers to deal with those sorts of protests and a lot of work has gone on to improve the liaison between schools and the police, but we share her concern.

Finally, in relation to face masks, we very much encourage the use of discretion with them, where appropriate. Teachers facing a classroom and teaching are not expected to wear a face mask. We absolutely recognise the difficulties that deaf children face but we encourage schools to use their discretion in ensuring they can accommodate those children, just as they accommodate every other child.

Professor Kathleen Stock: Resignation

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Tuesday 16th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I point my noble friend towards the recent Employment Appeal Tribunal ruling that held that “gender-critical” beliefs that do not seek to “destroy the rights” of trans people can be protected beliefs under the Equality Act. Individuals should not face unlawful discrimination in the workplace for expressing those beliefs within the law.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, universities should be places where unpopular views can be aired, discussed and challenged. As we have heard, academic freedom is of paramount importance. However, does the Minister agree that staff and students should be able to pursue their studies in an atmosphere that is safe and inclusive? There should be no place for the intemperate and divisive language that seems to have been a feature on both sides in this particular sad case.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right: there should be a safe and inclusive environment. The right to freedom of speech is not absolute and certainly does not include the right to incite violence or terrorism or to harass others.

Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Report stage
Thursday 21st October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, for stepping in marvellously and introducing the amendment so confidently. It certainly seems, especially given the situation with the investigation that she describes, a pretty straightforward and simple way to address the issue, placing a duty on the Information Commissioner to prepare a code of practice in relation to the sharing of personal data. If the Minister is not going to accept this, perhaps she could tell us how instead the department intends to address these problems.

I would like to ask a little question. There have been concerns for some time that both practice and indeed legislation in education are loose in relation to data. Clause 11 makes provision to allow data sharing by and with Ofqual, the OfS and Ofsted as well as prescribed persons, and the provisions relate to technical education functions. Could that include students’ personal data? If so, for what purposes? How widely could “prescribed persons” be interpreted?

Can the Minister clarify whether the scope of Clause 11 extends beyond England? Although the institutions to which the new powers apply are all currently based in England, the people and institutions from which they will obtain personal data under those powers could presumably be at any educational setting across the UK within the scope of the Bill. What consideration has been given to the prescribed persons to whom the institution may pass on the data being based outside England in accordance with their own data-sharing powers?

These days students need and expect consistent controls across their data for collection, for use, for distribution and for destruction when it is no longer required for the lawful purposes for which it was collected. I am aware that institutions have also called for better guidance. Concerns have also been raised that the Bill does not preclude commercial use. Could the Minister comment on that?

Data is a valuable asset and it needs appropriate safeguards and a public interest test, so I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 67 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, but skilfully presented by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, seeks to place a duty on the Information Commissioner to prepare a code of practice in relation to the sharing of personal data by organisations that collect such data for post-16 educational purposes.

I thank both the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for bringing this issue to my attention. The Government agree that this is an issue that needs addressing, and we share both noble Lords’ aims for increasing assurances around the processing and sharing of personal data for learners and students in post-16 settings.

The department’s response to this issue is to set up an education sector certification scheme, with the support of the ICO, that would allow the department to set standards in a wide range of areas. This would cover the data protection needs of the whole education sector, not just the 16 to 19 age group covered by the Bill. We feel that a certification scheme, rather than a code, gives us flexibility to deliver elements when they are ready. We will not have to wait until all elements are complete, which allows us to be flexible when responding to priority needs. In addition, as technology and the law change, we are able to update specific standards without having to update a full code, allowing us to remain flexible to future changes.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, mentioned, I have written to both the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, detailing the department’s ambition and next steps in tackling this issue, which will include writing both to the ICO and to the ed-tech companies by the end of the year.

I am amused at the definition of “a little question” from the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock; it was at least three little questions. If I may, I will write to her on the detailed points. Broadly, the thrust of her questions is that student data should be protected. The department continually keeps its processes and practices under review to ensure that we are taking all necessary steps to protect data, including updates to access controls, audit trails of data usage and reviewing risk as part of our data protection impact assessment. In relation specifically to this amendment, the proposed data certification scheme would formalise these controls across the sector. If I may, I will respond in writing to her other points.

I therefore hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Storey, will consider withdrawing his amendment. I again place on record my thanks to him and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for bringing this to my attention.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

I thank the Minister very much for her reply. We entirely agree that a certification scheme is better than a code and will provide more education expertise and focus and more transparency. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Report stage
Tuesday 12th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly, because we have spent a long time on this very important group of amendments. I added my name to Amendment 20, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, to ensure collaboration between the Departments for Education and for Business, and local government. Of course, this is hugely important, because there is little point in encouraging students into work-based qualifications if there are no jobs for them to fill either locally—which is where the local government people come in—or nationally, where the Business Department should have an overview of the skills the country needs. We desperately need a long-term coherent strategy.

I so agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bird, in his plea for creativity in education. I have long espoused the idea that education should be fun and that every child should be encouraged in their own skills and interests to try to get confidence that they can contribute to society, and I do not think that our education system does that.

I also support Amendment 66, proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, putting in a plea for vocational English and maths. GCSE English and maths are academic and are absolutely not appropriate for a whole load of people whose skills are more practical. The noble Baroness is quite right to press for support for those for whom literacy and numeracy are real difficulties and challenges. Without those basic skills, people have such difficulties in every aspect of their lives. They need all the help they can get from the nation and community. There are some really valuable amendments in this group, and I hope that the Minister sees that and takes them on board.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this group of amendments. If I may, I shall start by responding to the words of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and his challenge to the Government. I do not want to be flippant, but there is nobody in this Chamber more aware than me of just how many former Secretaries of State for Education and former Education Ministers I am surrounded by. In listening to the noble Lord, I was reminded of the time when I worked in the City, where I was advised early on that “This time it will be different” were the most expensive words for an investor—so I hear him.

In trying to answer the noble Lord’s point about why it will work this time, I am grateful to him for pointing out that this is an enormously difficult and challenging area. He will be aware that, in the White Paper, we set out a number of planks through which we will try to address the entrenched issues that he raised. LSIPs—I think that by this stage in the debate I am allowed an acronym—are an important plank, and our reform of technical and vocational qualifications is another, along with how further education is funded in this country. I shall come on to the points that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, raised about accountability, and the fact that we need to stay honest and keep checking how this works in practice, if necessary course-correcting to make sure that it delivers what the House resoundingly wants it to deliver. That is also an important part of it, albeit in future. So I thank the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to set that out.

I turn to the detail of the amendments, and first to Amendments 8 and 9 from my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on consideration of skills deficiencies in specific fields when developing local skills improvement plans—skills described as absolutely crucial by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. I know that my noble friend brings enormous experience from boardrooms around the country to her amendment; she rightly raises the importance of digital skills and innovation. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, has great insight into the issues surrounding the food system and biodiversity. We also heard from the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, about his very practical and relevant expertise and experience in engineering skills. These are all areas that the Government are actively trying to address in our skills policy. We have introduced, as noble Lords know, digital and other skills boot camps, covering construction and, most recently, HGV. So we are trying to be responsive to needs. On T-levels, we have introduced them recently in engineering and other related areas.

Covid-19: Performing Arts Freelance Workers

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot accept the noble Lord’s criticism of the Government’s action, which has been speedy, generous, broad and effective. Of course we keep it under review, but it is unparalleled in its generosity.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, with all the birthday wishes, in which I join, we have run out of time, so I apologise to the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, Lord Foster of Bath and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, that there was not time to take their questions.

European Union: Visa-free Touring for Musicians

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can say only to the noble Earl that we tried hard in these negotiations to make the case based on the evidence given to us by the sectors that we represent, and the EU rejected those suggestions.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord McNicol of West Kilbride, that we did not have time for his supplementary question.

Sport Sector: Financial Support

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank both noble Lords for their questions and their welcome to this funding. I echo the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, in thanking the civil servants in both DCMS and the Treasury for their incredible work on this package.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, started by asking about timings for the disbursement of these funds. This package is aimed at those clubs really facing an existential threat, particularly as a result of the recent lockdown and the inability to allow fans back and the income that comes with that. We are keen on and committed to getting the first tranche of funding out by year end. More detail will be published about that shortly. There will also be an independent board overseeing the disbursement of the funds.

The noble Lord also asked about funding for the women’s game. I must confess that I heard my honourable friend the Minister for Sport be slightly more vehement about the importance of those clubs receiving funding from the Government treating women and women’s sport exactly the same as men’s. The criteria for this fund are identical for women’s sport and men’s sport.

I fear that I will disappoint the noble Lord regarding a further update on the fan-led review. As he noted, it is a manifesto commitment and we are committed to doing it. Progress is being made but no firm date has yet been settled on.

Both noble Lords talked about the importance of returning fans to stadia. We are all enormously keen to get fans back and delighted by the recent decision that in tiers 1 and 2, in particular, there will be capacity for up to—in tier 1—4,000 fans in the open air. As the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, noted himself in a later comment, the decisions about the number of fans in a stadium are based not purely on the capacity of the stadium but also on the design, entrances, exits and travelling arrangements. We have done a number of pilots which have helped inform our thinking. We will watch and learn from the opening-up that is shortly to be with us, and then we will build on that. But we really do feel optimistic about the prospects for this as we go into the new year, and particularly beyond Easter.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, asked specifically about rugby union and rightly pointed out the risks in the scrum—to the long list of which a new risk has now been added for those brave enough to go into the scrum. We are obviously aware that this is a close-contact sport and will have particular challenges. We aim to give more detail on how we hope to address the points that the noble Lord rightly raised around vaccination in particular. We are working and hope to be able to publish a not-later-than date. As I mentioned, the Health Secretary has been very optimistic about seeing a significant change in conditions around Easter. We all look forward to that.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, also asked about trainers. Obviously, with the £40 million going to racecourses and the ability for racing to take place, there will be a trickle-down benefit to trainers from the prize money from those events.

I felt that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, was not at his most generous when he talked about the progress and implied that there would be a stop-start pattern. I think that we have come a really long way. There is light at the end of the tunnel for both grass-roots and professional sport. We have a lot of hope, based on the vaccine results announced recently and on the level of testing that we are now achieving. We are very grateful to the Sports Technology and Innovation Group for its advice on how we can bring fans back as quickly as possible.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, we now come to the 30 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I reassure the noble Baroness that my department does not need any nudging in relation to the importance of sport for young people. As I mentioned, we committed £220 million to grass-roots sport, much of which will benefit young people. Crucially, we have also worked closely with the youth sector throughout the pandemic, so that youth workers are able to carry on providing the critical support for just the vulnerable young people to whom the noble Baroness rightly alludes.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and answered.

Arts, Culture and Heritage: Support Package

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Barran

Wednesday 8th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

Not only is it good to announce a package that exceeds expectations but it is very nice to respond to one as well. The noble Lord raises a critical point as regards new entrants. Obviously, the fabric of the grants that we give out will need to reflect not only the ecosystem of our arts and heritage and culture but its future, of which new entrants are a critical part.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Urgent Question has now elapsed. I apologise to the three noble Lords who were not able to ask their questions.