Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie]

17: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, after “England” insert “, Scotland”
Member’s explanatory statement
This is a probing amendment to establish whether it is intended to exclude from the scope of the Bill residents of border areas of England who are registered with a general medical practice in Scotland.

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[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 17 and 309A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, which I have supported. The noble Lord sends his sincere apologies that he cannot be here today. I will also speak to Amendment 62 in my name. I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for his discussions with both the noble Lord and me on how this Bill affects Scotland.

These are probing amendments. They seek to establish the scope of the Bill, firstly with regard to residents of England who may find themselves availing of Scottish health services. Amendments 17 and 309A remove an anomaly in the Bill under which some residents in England close to the Scottish border will be excluded from its scope because they are registered with a Scottish GP. This is relatively common in border areas, as it may be that a Scottish GP is closer than the nearest English practice, or it may reflect a desire to stay with the same practice after moving house. The BMA has identified cross-jurisdiction protection for doctors supporting their patients in shared-care arrangements across borders as a gap in this Bill that it would like to see addressed in Committee. The Scottish Ambulance Service has also requested further clarity on what paramedics should do or not do across border areas. How does the noble and learned Lord plan to address these issues?

My Amendment 62 is about whether the remit of the Bill extends, perhaps unwittingly, to Scottish doctors, as it probes whether any Scottish GP, whether or not you are registered with them, can undertake preliminary discussions. The Amendment refers to Clause 3, referred to on page 1 of the Bill, and the steps taken under Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19. Clause 8 refers to the preliminary discussion, the initial request for assistance and the first declaration that is done by the terminally ill person who, under subsection (3)(a), must be in England and Wales, but Clauses 10 and 11 are about the role of doctors. My reading of Clause 1(3), which was inserted in the other place, is that the steps in Clauses 8, 10, 11 and 19 must be taken when the terminally ill person is in England or Wales, but the steps in Clauses 10 and 11 are to be taken only by doctors in England and Wales—not Clause 8, the initial request for assistance, or Clause 19, the confirmation of the request for assistance, or second declaration. They could be undertaken by any GP and, as such, the Bill as it stands would permit discussions to be undertaken by GPs in Scotland even though they would not be regulated under the Bill. Is this what the sponsors of the Bill intended?

I believe there would be a number of consequential issues that might need to be addressed, depending on the territorial extent of the Bill. For example, can the noble and learned Lord say whether the recording required of the preliminary discussion in Clause 7 would work for Scottish GPs? Given the very separate record keeping of NHS Scotland and NHS England, which he and I have discussed, the considerable challenges of cross-border data sharing in the context of health, particularly in primary care, and the separate Scottish legal context, where does that leave the offence of destruction of documentation in Clauses 35 and 36 if the preliminary discussion is undertaken by a Scottish GP? If the intention is that Scottish GPs can undertake these discussions, can I ask the sponsors to clarify this for the record? If this is not the intention, can the noble and learned Lord consider whether the territorial extent needs to be clarified in other areas of the Bill? If it is not the intention, does the noble and learned Lord consider that further amendments need to be tabled to ensure that this loophole is closed? Perhaps he could take us through the provisions relating to Scotland in this response and clarify.

I believe that, when parts of the Bill were extended to Scotland on Report, the sponsor did not have time to explain why they were needed or what they did. The honourable Member for Glasgow West asked whether the Bill’s sponsors had had any conversations with Scotland’s Lord Advocate and the Scottish Government, and the honourable Member for Spen Valley was only able to confirm that she had taken legal advice from government officials to ensure that devolution is respected. She stated that conversations had already started and would continue where legislation that affects other jurisdictions needs to be amended. Could the Minister confirm for us what guidance the Government have provided regarding the provisions relating to Scotland and their necessity?

As this House is well aware, the Scottish Parliament is currently going through its own stages on an assisted dying Private Member’s Bill in Holyrood, so we are facing the very real possibility of a two-tier system in Britain, which the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has highlighted as being extremely concerning. There is currently a sharp divide between what has been proposed for Scotland and what we have before us here. The amendments in this group do not affect in any way what happens in Scotland, but, like the former Prime Minister, I am very concerned that we could find ourselves in a situation where people are moving between the two jurisdictions. At the very least, I would have expected there to be intensive consultation between the two Parliaments.

The Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Health has written a number of letters to the lead committee on assisted dying in the Scottish Parliament, in which he acknowledges that the Scottish and UK Government officials must continue to hold discussions on the legislative competence issues. Is the Minister able to say more about these discussions? Are they confined to legislative competence or do they extend to issues such as delivery timescales, the regulatory framework of medical practitioners across the UK and the intention to give Scottish Ministers the authority to determine approved substances to use, all of which Mr Gray has highlighted as concerns and are indicative of the problems of having potentially different systems north and south of the border?

In conclusion, it seems to me that matters are moving and changing at pace, both with additions to this Bill and the Scottish Bill. If things are done piecemeal or with haste, we are in danger of assisted dying becoming another deposit return scheme—although you cannot return from being dead. The deposit return scheme was an example of the two Parliaments wanting to implement something that needed careful consultation and co-operation across the UK, legislating separately, both totally within their devolved areas but, in the case of Scotland, ending up with a Bill that could not be implemented because of the cross-border issues that had not been fully acknowledged and addressed. Addressing these issues and getting clear answers from the Bill’s sponsors and the Minister are what this group of amendments is about, and I believe they are essential. I beg to move.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 17, particularly in relation to the Scottish Ambulance Service, which my noble friend Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie mentioned briefly in her speech. I do so as someone who can remember just about all my journeys in ambulances—some in agony after a fracture, some with the blue light flashing, others more sedate. What marked them all was a sense that, however much pain I was in, I was none the less safe. The ambulance crew were in control of the situation, caring, competent and consistently professional. That is my abiding memory based on first-hand experience.

I am concerned, as I understand the Scottish Ambulance Service is, that there is currently no guidance on this specific issue even though its absence has significant practical implications. Simply put, from a frequent ambulance traveller’s perspective, without this amendment ambulance crews and other healthcare professionals might well not feel fully in control of the situation. That is just not where you want to be as a potential patient needing urgent emergency care.

Surely, emergency services operating across the Scotland-England boundary not only need but deserve clear guidance. For example, what exactly is a paramedic meant to do if they are called out because an assisted death has gone badly wrong, leaving the individual seriously injured but very much alive, which of course can happen and indeed has happened on occasion in other jurisdictions where such legislation has been implemented? It does happen, yet the Bill, as far as I can see, is silent on this point, which is not much use to a paramedic desperately wanting to provide care when an emergency response is requested due to complications such as choking or vomiting.

I am not aware of this having been covered in the impact assessment, or of John Grady having received an answer when he raised this very issue on Report in the other place. So, I would be very grateful if the Minister could share with the House in her closing remarks what work has been done by the Government to evaluate and address such an important cross-border issue.

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On the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin —to which one is very sympathetic—I do not think that how you deal with somebody in distress in the circumstances raised by the noble Lord is a real question in relation to the cross-border issues. I think I have answered the questions that the right reverend Prelate raised, as they are effectively the same issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie. In the light of that, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate, and I thank the Minister for her words. We all want to ensure that the Bill is coherent. We all appreciate that it is an evolving situation and that there might be consequential things that need to happen down the line. I just fear that the interactions with Scotland seem to have been very hastily done. We had our debate on Wales on the first day in Committee but I feel that Scotland is different, both with health and justice being devolved and with the fact that there is a Bill going through the Scottish Parliament at the moment.

I have the permission of the noble Lord, Lord Beith, to withdraw his amendment. On the assurance that we can continue to monitor this evolving situation to ensure that things are indeed coherent, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 17 withdrawn.