Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 19th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I warmly support the introduction of this Bill, and that will come as no surprise to my noble friend the Minister. My beef is that it has taken so long to get to this point. I could have done with the Bill back in the 1960s, when I was a very young councillor faced with the prospect of a travelling circus coming to town seeking a loan of council property to stage the circus. I had misgivings and that was why I had my first contact with the RSPCA, to ask what it thought of this. The reply was unequivocal: the society felt that circus performing was damaging to wild animals and expressed concerns about two aspects. The first was whether there was cruelty in the training of animals, particularly the very wild ones. I believe that much of the training at that time took place abroad, where there could be no control whatever. The second aspect is still valid today: that travelling from place to place, even if only 15 miles as someone suggested, means that animals are held in close confinement. I do not believe that animals which are probably used to roaming as part of their natural way of life should be confined in that way. The Bill is a great step forward.

There has certainly been a change in public attitudes, a point touched on by my noble friend. He said that programmes made by the BBC Natural History Unit had done a great deal to allow us to see animals in their natural habitats. We owe a lot to Sir David Attenborough for his wonderful work in this regard. These programmes have opened up a completely new world, with the technological advances in film-making such as attaching devices to animals so that they can be tracked. That makes circus animals look so old-fashioned that we really do not need them any more.

I am anxious that the Bill should go through, so I do not want to make too many points that might prevent its progress. However, I want to ask my noble friend about the proposed guidance to be brought forward. As a former chairman of the Delegated Powers Committee, I have slight misgivings the moment that guidance is mentioned because I am anxious that Parliament should retain some control. Very often guidance means that Ministers are free to issue whatever they like, and its precise status is sometimes in doubt. I would much prefer a modest bit of delegated legislation, where we could retain some interest in what was put forward.

Again, I am anxious not to delay the Bill, and I know an element of haste is needed because of the end of the current regulations—we must not have a hiatus—but, as I say, I am somewhat concerned, particularly about the definition of “wild animal” as an animal not normally domestic in Britain. I find that phraseology somewhat woolly and hope we might have much better guidance on precisely what it means. That said, I warmly appreciate the fact that this Bill is at long last going through, and it has my complete support.

Plastics: Reduction in Use

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am a little confused by what the noble Baroness has said. When I go into our fruiterers, I pick up and look at the fruit and am given it in a paper, not plastic, bag. As I have already said, Morrisons are using paper bags instead of plastic ones. This is happening more often. As I said in my earlier answer, we recognise the need for consistency. We need to enable people to recycle more, but we also need to reduce the use of plastic. I have been very clear about that.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, is there any possibility of developing plastic which degrades?

Ivory Bill

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, I did not grow up knowing elephants, but I do have a vivid recollection of a safari trip I made many years ago—not at Treetops but somewhere similar, with a watering hole. We were told that the animals would probably come during the night, a bell would ring and if we wished we could get up to see them. The bell rang and I shot up—I was younger in those days—and one of the things that stood out for me, among the other animals coming, was a little family of elephants: two adults and two very frolicsome youngsters. In fact, they were behaving slightly badly and one of the elder elephants gave them a bit of a cuff—you know, “Just behave yourselves”. That has stayed with me for evermore and it reminded me of the story by the noble Lord, Lord Jones of Cheltenham, about the wonderful ending of that matriarchal elephant. I saw them young; he saw one very old. They are remarkable and something to be cherished and preserved.

I do not take the view of some of those in the debate who fear that the Bill, though well intentioned, really will not do any good. I thought that my noble friend the Minister made a very strong case for the good that the Bill could do, and he was ably and powerfully supported by my noble friends Lord Hague and Lady Chalker. They have an immense knowledge of Africa and have done a great deal and, if I have to choose between the doubters and those two, I am going to support my noble friends: they made very powerful cases indeed.

We have all been horrified by the number of elephants killed, but nobody has actually mentioned the suffering in their deaths. I suspect that the poachers are pretty vicious and I am quite sure that they are capable of bringing an animal down, not killing it completely and still hacking off its tusks. I do not really want to think about that too much, but it is something we should remember because it is all too likely to happen. I realise that the Bill, when it becomes an Act, will not do everything and I think there is a very important case for trying to encourage, perhaps through other departments, the value of providing alternative livelihoods for people in these countries. It will not affect the poachers, who are obviously after something far bigger and more vicious, but we should try to encourage in every way possible that the elephants and other wildlife should be seen as an economic advantage, through tourism and various other ways of using them to best advantage while we preserve them. I hope that my noble friend will look at that, although I realise that it goes far beyond the Bill.

I am also anxious that we should take pretty urgent steps to include ivory from other animals—rhinoceroses and so forth. We can see that if there is a market—and everybody keeps telling us that there is a market for ivory, particularly in the Far East—people will obviously go for alternatives to elephant ivory if it exists. Very often in this place we do not know all the unintended consequences of Bills that we pass, but we can be pretty sure that if we ban ivory from elephants people will look for alternatives. I hope my noble friend will make full use of the ability in the Bill to act fast. I believe there are consultations going on, and I hope they will not take for ever because this is very important.

I have one other, slightly quirky point. As a former chairman of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, I looked with interest at the departmental brief which the committee will be looking at between now and when the Bill comes back in Committee. I notice that there are at least five occasions when statutory guidance will be given by the Secretary of State and there is to be no parliamentary intervention. My antennae twitched slightly at that. No doubt this will be looked at it, and maybe I am worrying unduly, but delegated legislation often has a very important impact on a Bill and how it is to operate. I simply make that passing reference and hope it will be taken on board.

I listened with interest and some concern to those who are interested in the world of works of art, who spoke about the possible impact of the limited exemptions which will exist. That is not something I feel particularly confident about pontificating on, but I hope that during the passage of the Bill reasonable points can be made, perhaps in Committee, to deal with some of that. Broadly, I think the exemptions are right and provide a very good balance between banning all ivory products entirely and allowing exemptions. I look forward to more detailed progress, but in the meantime I warmly support the introduction of the Bill.

Transport Emissions in Urban Areas

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There were a number of points there. We are one of 22 member states reporting exceedances, and there are 12 other countries against which infraction proceedings are carrying on. So this is undoubtedly a problem in many of the developed economies, which is precisely why the £3.5 billion, plus what we are announcing today on particulate matter and ammonia, is all about bearing down on the problem of improving air quality generally. We recognise that it is a great health problem that has a great cost in misery and financially. We wish to address this, and this is what we precisely need to do.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I draw my noble friend’s attention to a scheme I saw being demonstrated at the current Chelsea Flower Show. Research has shown that some common house plants such as ivy are brilliant at clearing pollution within a domestic situation. This seems to be an interesting point that might be followed up.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with my noble friend, whom I saw at Chelsea very early yesterday morning. Plants and trees—the natural world and its protection—are hugely important because of what the natural world does for us. We still have a lot more to learn, and there are many plants from which I hope we will learn a great deal more about improving our environment.

Animal Products: Labelling and Packaging

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I said, we have some of the highest standards in the world. We will continue to have some of the highest standards in the world. That is why we are exporting ever more produce in the food and drink sector. The Food Standards Agency is required to protect public health and consumers’ wider interest in food. That is its remit and it will continue to do so.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend think that consumers are also entitled to know how their meat has been slaughtered—hopefully, by the humane method of pre-stunning—and that it should be labelled?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand what my noble friend says. We are clear that we understand the public concern that people should be eating meat from animals in the way that they would wish. We will be looking at labelling as a post-Brexit opportunity, as I said, and this is one area that we can consider.

Circuses: Wild Animals

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I obviously understand what the noble Baroness is saying, and I too would like to make progress. However, I repeat that 16 wild animals are currently under a very rigorous licensing scheme. I deliberately mentioned their species so that your Lordships could understand which animals were involved. I emphasise that there are very regular inspections, and one reason why primary legislation is necessary is that there is a view that a legal challenge would be made because there would be insufficient grounds to secure a ban on a welfare basis.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, even if enforcement is rigorous in relation to animals in circuses, what about the position of the other animals that have been referred to—the primates which are inappropriately kept in people’s homes? Who is enforcing the laws relating to that?

Brexit: Environmental Standards

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, obviously I am not privy to what will be in the forthcoming negotiations, but what we have said and will continue to say is that we are not prepared to see a diminution of our environmental standards. We are subject to obligations and treaties, and we wish to hand over a better environment than the one we have inherited.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, is our departure from Europe not also a great opportunity to support and encourage our very important horticultural industry?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am taken with what my noble friend has said. Clearly, this provides an opportunity for a boost in domestic horticultural trade. I am very keen, for instance, on Grown in Britain, in terms of our trees. We have, unfortunately, imported many pests and diseases over the years, so I think that this provides us with a great opportunity, and I would encourage domestic tree production.

Dog Licensing

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I think the noble Lord will accept that that is somewhat wide of the Question.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I sought in vain to introduce a dog registration scheme allied to microchipping in the mid-1980s. Can my noble friend expand on exactly what the Government plan to do now? He referred to it only briefly.

Japan: Dolphins

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the issue is indeed of concern to a number of EU member states, and was discussed at the EU CITES management meeting in December. We continue to consider what measures the EU can take. For example, parties to CITES can place a reservation on a species, which means that they are not bound by the CITES controls relating to that species. We will, through the EU, continue to encourage countries such as Japan and others to withdraw their reservations on, for example, whale species.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, are the Government co-operating with the various animal welfare societies in this country, which feel very strongly about this, not least the Japan Animal Welfare Society, of which I have the honour to be patron?

[Lord De Mauley]

I pay tribute to my noble friend for all the work she does for animal welfare. I agree with her that the pressure which animal welfare organisations can bring to bear in situations such as these is often more effective, frankly, than that of Governments.

Animal Welfare: Cats and Dogs

Baroness Fookes Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, before I get launched and forget, I must declare an interest as a vice-president of the RSPCA and president of one of its local branches. I also chair a charity that seeks to raise funds and channel them to the Companion Animal Welfare Council, which was set up originally by my noble friend Lord Soulsby and others, with the object of providing expert advisory guidance on all matters relating to companion animals. The idea of the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, was that eventually it would become like the Farm Animal Welfare Council, with some government support. Unfortunately, finances are such that this has never happened. Indeed, we are now finding it difficult to raise funds, at a time when it is so difficult for all the animal welfare charities that previously contributed to it. It has produced a number of interesting reports, one of which went to Defra when it was considering, in its embryonic form, what became the 2006 Act. It has also considered dog registration and other matters.

I am, of course, delighted that dog registration will become compulsory, with microchipping, in 2016, but I have to tell the Minister that I personally, like many others, have waited a long, long time. When the old dog licensing legislation was abolished in the 1980s, I suggested that compulsory registration, brought up to date with the then new microchipping, would be a good idea. In the other place I sought on two separate occasions to attach it to other Bills, with a total lack of success. So I am very pleased now, because I think it will do more than anything else to improve the welfare of dogs and help to deal with the appalling problem of strays, which has been so distressing to many of us for years, and also the unwanted dog population.

The noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, mentioned dog fighting—a particularly horrible and barbaric so-called sport. He wondered why there were so few prosecutions. I fear that the reason is that the very secretive groups of people who undertake this are very good at finding distant places where they may engage in it. For example, when I was a Plymouth MP, we knew that Dartmoor often provided ideal opportunities for people to hide away and engage in that barbaric practice. I know from talking to RSPCA inspectors that they virtually had to go underground, practically in disguise, to penetrate such groups. It is not an easy thing to do.

Something of great concern to me at the moment is the use of electronic collars for the so-called training of dogs. As far as I am aware—unless the Minister can tell me otherwise—it is still legal, but I think it should be outlawed. The matter could well be embraced in one of the codes under the 2006 Act. I hope that the Minister will look into that as a matter of urgency.

There are innumerable other matters with which one could concern oneself, but let me now turn to the subject of cats. Like my noble friend Lord Black, I am a great lover of cats as well as dogs. One of the most miserable parts of my life in animal welfare has been seeing how many cats are unwanted. Sometimes they become feral. The animal welfare charities are unable to deal with them all properly, and one of the most miserable things one can do is to go to one of the welfare establishments where there are cages upon cages of animals waiting to be re-homed. They all look adorable, and one wants to take them all home. In fact, years ago when I chaired the RSPCA, my mother was still alive and I used to take her round on visits—until finally she said, “I can’t bear to see any more of these unwanted dogs and cats. Please don’t ask me to come with you again.” We still have the problem; it never seems to go away.

I hope that the Minister will look again at the issue of unwanted animals, particularly cats. I am sure that, as other noble Lords have suggested, a lot could be done with a really good neutering programme. The animal welfare charities do their best, but I believe that the Government themselves should be taking a more urgent look at this. Dare I suggest that they might put a little money towards it? I am probably addressing deaf ears—very deaf ears. None the less I shall make the point, because it is time that Governments took more responsibility, rather than waving it off to local authorities, animal welfare charities—you name it. I am aware that my time is up, so I shall sit down in hope.