Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Baroness Tonge

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I hesitate to join in this debate, because it has been fascinating and wide ranging, and I hesitate particularly to come in after the noble Lord, Lord Darzi of Denham. However, I would like to pull out two factors which are important here.

First of all, there are inherent tensions. Fears have already been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, in particular. One of the fears is whether we will have a National Health Service or a national health insurance, which will actually be an insurance programme. Those who belong to a GP and are part of a clinical commissioning group will then access those services which that clinical commissioning group determines to commission, irrespective of who the provider is, and there will actually no longer be a National Health Service.

That is linked to autonomy, because the worry in this clause—the second anxiety—is where the boundaries of that autonomy lie. This clause does not seem to stipulate any boundaries to the autonomy at all, nor indeed, whose autonomy overrules another’s. Will it be the Commissioning Board, or the clinical commissioning groups? Where is the hierarchy? Health services are actually a spectrum. You cannot divide the actions of one from another, because they have a knock-on effect. A clear and very simple example is that delayed diagnosis in primary care results in later presentation and more expenditure in secondary care, but more importantly, in poorer outcomes for the patient, who has effectively been withheld from accessing expertise for too long.

Behind all that is a worry, because general practice per se is not an NHS employed service. GPs are individual contractors whose general medical services contract is remarkably poorly defined. It may be that the autonomy of the Commissioning Board will allow it to define very clearly what is in general medical services and what is out. The whole concept of GMS suffered hugely when the 24-hour responsibility went and out-of-hours services came in. That fragmented, to a large extent, what GPs did.

It is completely mistaken to believe that liberating the NHS depends on these clauses in the Bill. I have my name to one of the amendments to delete one of the clauses, but I do not see, from the debate that we have had today, how deleting the clauses will stop the changes to liberate the NHS that everybody has been arguing for.

Unfortunately for patients—and the NHS service is there for patients—the NHS has indeed become risk averse in a culture where the managers have become frightened, for whatever reason, of speaking out, and of taking patient-oriented decisions, and have often put pressure on clinicians to not do what they have wanted to do. I fear that behind that, too, there has been peer pressure and a mistaken view that it is unprofessional to show that you care. There has been a view that, if you step out from the local culture to do what is right for the patient, even though it may not be right for the service or the system, that can result in severe disciplinary action against an individual. We see the extreme of that with people who whistleblow and speak out for services. However, I do not think that any of that will be affected whether the autonomy clauses are in or out of the Bill.

In the past, I have argued with the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, that the NHS should not be a political football and that there should be some distance between political interference and the way that the service is delivered on the ground. However, I must admit that I had never imagined that we might be discussing what could potentially be complete fragmentation of the service.

I should like to run through some of the boundaries that I think are very important in discussing this matter, and I know that we will be debating this further in relation to the role of the Secretary of State. Like others in the Committee, I commend the Minister for the way in which he handled the debate on Clause 1 and for his very positive approach to the discussions that we all need to have on these clauses at the beginning of the Bill.

Do the people with the autonomy have the skills and capabilities to exercise that autonomy, and how will those skills and capabilities be measured? How will autonomy interact, when you are trying to drive forward collaboration and integration and trying to drive performance management, with a decent level of services and consistency to improve quality if one part of the system decides, for whatever reason, that it does not want to provide a particular service or part of it? Will there be a requirement on these autonomous bodies to publish the evidence of their performance, or would such a request be deemed to be burdensome and to be impeding their autonomy?

I was particularly struck by a line in the impact assessment, which states that the reforms will create,

“a statutory basis for the NHS Commissioning Board and consortia, to protect them from interference in commissioning decisions at both a local and national level. To ensure their autonomy, both board and consortia remain solely responsible for their commissioning decisions, and neither are obligated to gain approval from local councils or health and wellbeing boards”.

In other words, the K factor would not be able to function.

In the past, I have understood the concept of earned autonomy, where the power and ability to take decisions at a more local level come when there is proof that quality has been driven up. However, I fear that these clauses will not do that, and they may just give unfettered autonomy to organisations which may be ill equipped to cope with the range of responsibilities that will suddenly be thrust upon them.

[Baroness Tonge]

My Lords, I intend to be very brief because we have already had a long debate, but I am bursting to say something. We have heard very erudite and learned speeches, not least from my noble friend Lord Marks, who put the situation very clearly. However, I am a simple soul. I told your Lordships at Second Reading that I was a barefoot doctor trying to protect patients and my staff from the ravages of health service reorganisation, and I want to try to tell the Committee briefly how they see the combination of these two clauses.

If Clause 4 were adopted, that could lead to different sorts of health services all over the country. Provision would not be equal throughout the country and people would not like that. On the other hand, if Clause 1 were amended after discussion to make sure that the Secretary of State had a duty to provide certain services, that would rule out Clause 4—there would no longer be autonomy because, as I understand it, the Secretary of State would be able to say, “No, you must provide this tariff of services”.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Baroness Tonge

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Tonge]

My Lords, most of the points I wanted to raise have already been raised so I will not repeat them. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on her comprehensive overview of her amendments. What concerns me most is those patients who fall through the net of the new general practice commissioning groups. If it is not area-based and there is not a primary care trust responsible for allocating those patients, where will people who do not speak English very well, asylum-seekers, the homeless, mentioned by the noble Baroness, and Travellers go? What about those patients whom I remember well, whom most GP practices did not want on their lists at all and who were rotated around general practices in order that they got medical treatment? What will happen to all those patients? There are many of them and some of them have severe disabilities and some are severely mentally ill. They fall into all sorts of groups. I am extremely concerned that without an area base or a responsibility on a PCT or a commissioning group to deal with patients in a particular geographical area, those patients will suffer hugely.

I want to make one final point. The other service that will suffer hugely is our accident and emergency departments, because if those people do not have GPs, that is where they will go. I was a casualty officer in central London for a whole year, once upon a time, and I virtually ran a general practice there then for patients who were unattached to general practices. That problem will increase, and I hope that the Minister will address that in his comments.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, it may help the Committee if I explain how the GP contract is being renegotiated; I hope that I get this right. Instead of a GP contract covering a rigidly defined area, as now, there will be an outer ring as well. If patients move a bit further away but stay within that outer ring area, instead of being forced to change their GP, they will be able to remain with their current GP. Therefore, I think that the problem of choice, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, alluded, should in large part be solved by the negotiations that the Government have just had with GPs. There is of course a difficulty in defining any area but to date the areas have been defined by GPs, and they will still have to define the outer area or outer ring to which it is practical for them travel to carry out home visits and so on.

As I understand it, a decision has not yet been taken on what will happen with people who, like most of your Lordships, are classified as temporary residents. Many of us live a long way from here and, if we need to see a GP, we register as a temporary resident with one somewhere in Westminster. I am not sure how those arrangements will work in the future but they have served us reasonably well until now. The danger in relation to allocation relates precisely to those patients to whom the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, referred—those who have been thrown off GP lists or cannot get themselves signed on to a GP list for whatever reason but still have healthcare needs. If those needs are not met, that will impact on the very social fabric of our society. I hope that I have clarified some of the points.