Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Baroness Barker

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 5th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, for raising this issue. I should declare that some years ago when I was a GP, I was responsible for looking after three care homes with children with really quite profound psychological disturbance because of what they had gone through prior to being taken into care. I carefully read the briefing from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. It is very important to listen to that college in particular, which has put out a remarkably strong briefing that also takes account of children up to the age of 25 when they are care leavers.

The last time we debated this I was concerned about contraceptive advice. I therefore contacted an abortion provider to ask about the contraceptive advice provided and was assured that really sound contraceptive advice is part of the telemedicine procedure. Does the Minister have any data on the number of second-time and third-time abortions that are being requested through telemedicine, as compared with those from face-to-face consultation? Certainly, in my time in practice, when one provided contraceptive services, one always felt that when somebody was presenting for an abortion, somewhere along the line one’s contraceptive advice had failed—often because of coercion by the male partner, one way or another. But for those who are emotionally vulnerable it can be very important.

I will address in just one sentence the excellent speech by my noble friend Lord Crisp in relation to his Motion J1. I hope the Government will listen to it, because we cannot carry on allowing the tobacco industry to exploit public health in the way that we have.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, is a stalwart of these debates and she always takes a view that is contrary to mine. I say at the beginning of my speech that I do not question her integrity in any way at all, but I do question the briefing on which she has based her speech tonight—and I question the briefing from this particular college. It has a public position which says that young women should have the option and be

“actively encouraged to take up a face-to-face appointment”.

That is the policy now; there is no policy that says that people cannot and should not be allowed to have a face-to-face appointment if they need it.

Secondly, this amendment would require there to be a face-to-face appointment, whereas the position arrived at following the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, and in the Commons is that a teleconsultation can happen and that, at that point, if it becomes evident that there is a need for a face-to-face appointment, it must happen. As we explained when we debated this issue a few weeks ago, the greatest coercion is on women not to have an abortion rather than women being forced to have an abortion. Professionals, who took great care to design the telemedicine system at the start of the pandemic, made sure that they included safeguarding as an integral part of what they did.

The noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, is right in one respect and wrong in another. There was one case, within the first month of the scheme being set up, where a woman got her dates wrong. That was discovered and that case was used to change the questions and the training. I have to say that I take exception to her saying that there are dozens of cases, because in the peer-reviewed assessments that have been done in three countries, Scotland, England and Wales, that has not been seen to be the case. If anything, professionals have erred on the side of caution when they think that a woman might be approaching the deadline. I am afraid that in this respect I do not think the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, is correct.

More to the point, throughout the discussions here and in another place, the professionals who have been responsible for not just delivering the services but for making sure that they are within ethical and professional frameworks and are monitored closely took into account all the ways in which they thought that young women and girls might be exploited. They took care to make sure that the services discovered that, and they have. They have found young women who have been trafficked. They have found young women who have been pressurised by partners. They have found young women who were prevented from going out to get contraception and therefore became pregnant.

I do not for one minute question the noble Baroness’s motivation, but I say to noble Lords that if they really want to protect young women and particularly girls, they should reject this amendment and accept the government amendment, which has been informed not just by the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, and others but by the majority of the royal colleges that practise in this field.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Finlay of Llandaff and Baroness Barker

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

Following on from that, one point that we should take into account is the extent to which the private sector and the NHS rely on the same workforce. That is particularly the case in relation to consultants and less so for nurses.

While we can argue about the location, price or quality, perhaps, of treatment and aftercare, the key issue is diagnostics, which is a huge issue at the moment in the NHS. I have a slightly different take on that. For all of my life, my mum was deaf, and I have to say that the quality of NHS hearing aids was about 10 years behind the private sector’s—but people trusted them; they trusted the quality of the diagnostics and the advice that they were given. We have moved a long way in terms of diagnostics for eyecare and hearing aids, but it does not matter where that happens; what the general public want to do is to be able to trust the quality and independence of the diagnostics that they get. If we can do that, I rather suspect that the general public, in the wake of the pandemic, when they see the NHS struggling in all sorts of ways to make up for two years in which their staff have been pulled around, sometimes away from their specialties, would be quite forgiving—as long as there are some very basic agreements about how it will work and the integrity of the work and systems.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for adding some clarification to the point that I was trying to make. I am not for or against any system; all I am saying is that the arrangements have to be in place so that nobody is jeopardised—and indeed, in the event of a patient being transferred from a private facility back into the NHS, that part of the NHS is appropriately recompensed, particularly if the patient comes from a long way away.