Artificial Intelligence (Regulation) Bill [HL]

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 22nd March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for the meeting he arranged to explain his Bill in detail and to answer some of the more naive questions from some Members of this House. Having gone through the Bill, I cannot see how we can ignore the importance of this, going forwards. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lady Kidron for the meeting that she established, which I think educated many of us on the realities of AI.

I want to focus on the use of AI in medicine because that is my field. The New England Journal of Medicine has just launched NEJM AI as a new journal to collate what is happening. AI use is becoming widespread but across the NHS tends to be small-scale. People hope that AI will streamline administrative tasks which are burdensome, improve communication with patients and do even simple things such as making out-patient appointments more suitable for people and arranging transport better.

For any innovations to be used, however, the infrastructure needs to be set up. I was struck yesterday at a meeting on emergency medicine where the consultant explained that it now takes longer to enter patient details in the computer system than it used to using old-fashioned pen and paper—the reason being that the computer terminals are not in the room where the consultation is happening so it takes people away.

A lot of people in medicine are tremendously enthusiastic—we see the benefits in diagnostics for images of cells and X-rays and so on—but there has to be reliability. Patients and people in the general population are buying different apps to diagnose things such as skin cancers, but the reliability of these apps is unproven. What we need is the use of AI to improve diagnostic accuracy. Currently, post-mortems show about a 5% error in what is written on the death certificate; in other words, at post-mortem, people are found to have died of something different from the disease or condition they were being treated for. So we have to improve diagnostics right across the piece.

But the problem is that we have to put that in a whole system. The information that goes in to train and teach these diagnostic systems has to be of very high quality, and we need audit in there to make sure that high quality is maintained. Although we are seeing fantastic advances in images such as mammograms, supporting radiologists, and in rapid diagnosis of strokes and so on, there is a need to ensure quality control in the system, so that it does not go wild on its own, that the input is being monitored and, as things change in the population, that that change is also being detected.

Thinking about this Bill, I reflected on the Covid experience, when the ground-glass appearance on X-rays was noted to be somewhat unique and new in advanced Covid lung disease. We have a fantastic opportunity, if we could use all of that data properly, to follow up people in the long term, to see how many have got clotting problems and how many later go on to develop difficulties or other conditions of which we have been unaware. There could be a fantastic public health benefit if we use the technology properly.

The problem is that, if it is not used properly, it will lose public trust. I noted that, in his speech introducing the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, used the word “trust” very often. It seems that a light-touch regulator that goes across many domains and areas is what we will need. It will protect copyright, protect the intellectual property rights of the people who are developing systems, keep those investments in the UK and foster innovation in the UK. Unless we do that, and unless we develop trust across the board, we will fail in our developments in the longer term. The real world that we live in today has to be safe, and the world that AI takes us into has to be safe.

I finish with a phrase that I have often heard resonate in my ears:

“Trust arrives on foot and leaves on horseback”.


We must not let AI be the horses that take all the trust in the developments away.

OFCOM (Duty regarding Prevention of Serious Self-harm and Suicide) Bill [HL]

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

3rd reading
Friday 16th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Samaritans most sincerely for all the work they have done with me for a very long time on this Bill and its background. I also thank those parents and families who have shared the overwhelming distress and tragedy of discovering that their child, brother or sister had been goaded and pushed into suicide by exposure to repeated messages, coming particularly through the internet and often completely unknown to the family. That was the motivation behind this Bill.

I am also extremely grateful to the Government, officials from Ofcom and the noble Lord, Lord Grade, in particular, for the work they are doing to make sure that this scourge that happens to our young people is adequately tackled. We are in a strange position because the Online Safety Bill is in Committee here at the moment and we are about to debate a government amendment which I hope will help address this problem.

I also commend Ofcom on the way it is already developing robust risk assessment and risk management processes because it has recognised just how harmful some of this activity is. I also thank all Members of this House for the support they have given me at all times when we have discussed this Bill and for the recognition across the House, particularly from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, of the importance of tackling this major problem in our society. I beg to move.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I give my warmest congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the progress of this very important Bill. I associate myself and my colleagues on these Benches with the thanks and appreciation extended to Ofcom for its involvement, to the Samaritans for their work not just on this Bill but day in, day out and of course to the bereaved families for their bravery and dignity in speaking out on this Bill and on so many other occasions, which I hope has really supported improvements for the future. I also thank the Minister and officials in his department and am grateful to noble Lords across the House, as ever, for their concern and consideration of this matter.

In seeing this Bill pass, I believe we honour those who have taken their own lives. I hope we give some small comfort and hope to the friends, families and communities who suffer the pain of tragedy and bereavement, having lost their loved ones. As we heard at Second Reading, the internet can be invaluable and positive in providing a space to speak openly and seek support but, regrettably, it can also mean content that encourages self-harm and suicide. At its worst, it is configured to bombard those who are at risk. We should reflect that the coroner ruled that the content that the late Molly Russell had viewed related to depression, self-harm and suicide and that it contributed to her death in more than just a minimal way.

As the noble Baroness said, the passage of this Bill coincides with the long-awaited Online Safety Bill; we will debate government amendments on this issue next Thursday as part of the group on communications offences. As the Minister would expect, we will seek a number of clarifications and, if necessary, any improvements. For today, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on her determination and work and wish this Bill all the very best as it continues on its path.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Viscount Camrose) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for tabling this Private Member’s Bill. Her knowledge and experience of these issues is highly regarded, rightly, on all sides of the House. I also thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this important debate so far. Like the noble Baroness, I call out the Samaritans for their ongoing brilliant work in this area.

As my noble friend Lord Parkinson set out at Second Reading and in Online Safety Bill Committee debates, the Government recognise the devastating impact of suicide and self-harm content, which has affected countless lives and families. We remain committed to addressing this material and giving vulnerable users the protection they deserve. While my department is leading this work, it is part of a cross-government approach which will go a long way to protecting people from suicide and self-harm content online.

I do not wish to repeat recent discussions, but I can assure the noble Baroness that the Online Safety Bill has been carefully designed to ensure that users are better protected from this content, with the strongest protections reserved for children. On top of this, we have tabled an amendment to the Bill to introduce a new self-harm offence, as has been mentioned, which noble Lords will have an opportunity to debate next week in Committee. Further, the powers granted to Ofcom via the legislation will protect users and negate the need for the noble Baroness’s Private Member’s Bill. Ofcom has the expertise to regulate and enforce the Bill’s provisions and implement its own research findings.

I thank the noble Baroness again for bringing her Bill to the House and facilitating this important debate, but I hope noble Lords are reassured of the Government’s extensive work in these areas and I hope that the noble Baroness will appreciate that, for the reasons set out, the Government cannot support this Private Member’s Bill.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the very generous words of the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and for her understanding of the background to this. I am also grateful to the Government for the discussions we have had and recognise what has been said. We have more to debate. However, I emphasise that prevention of suicide and self-harm is essential and involves many different government departments and people across the whole of society. At the moment, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

Bill passed and sent to the Commons.