Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours for supporting my earlier remarks. Perhaps I may expand on them briefly. This is a very strange situation. It is not one that I have ever come across quite in this way before. There is evidence which is, at least prima facie, relevant. Everyone seems to agree that it is relevant to consideration of the Bill. Indeed, as far as the Information Commissioner is concerned, it is not only relevant but disclosable. That is a fairly strong basis on which to start our consideration of what we do about the Bill. If there is a chunk of evidence which is relevant to the Bill, and if that evidence is prima facie disclosable, it is somewhat wrong for the Government to crack ahead with the whole thing while the issue of disclosure of that piece of evidence remains up in the air. If one could expedite the appeals—I am bound to say, as a former practising barrister, that it does not always happen that appeals are expedited in the way one hopes—and therefore get the appeals procedure out of the way before Report stage starts, that would be a sensible way of proceeding.

On the other hand, if you do not get the appeals procedure out of the way, you have to look at the other side of the balance, which is that if the appeals procedure is not out of the way and this issue remains live, the Report stage should not start until after the appeals have been determined and after there has been a firm judicial decision, one way or the other, as to whether or not the Information Commissioner’s opinion on disclosure of this evidence is right. It is a strange position, but the evidence is clearly relevant and, according to the Information Commissioner, prima facie, disclosable. There are also precedents that this type of information should be disclosed. Therefore, it seems to me that it would be wrong just to crack ahead with the Bill as if this issue did not exist.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I hesitated over whether to intervene, but I feel that I should comment as a clinician. There is enormous concern out there in the clinical services, particularly over transition as the changes come through. There are all types of risk registers and many of them deal with financial and livelihood matters, but the problem is that this issue relates not to livelihoods but lives. People are really concerned that they will not be able to treat critically ill patients in the way that they know, and in the way that the evidence informs them, if we do not get the transitional arrangements correct. That is why there is so much strength of feeling behind the need for access and the need to know where the major risks that have been identified are. Assurance needs to be given through this House to the public at large that action has been taken to deal with the major risks that may be exposed in the risk register.

This is a Motion of Regret. It is nothing more than that. It does not alter the course of the law, and many suggestions have already been made to the noble Earl. I should emphasise that this debate in no way undermines the confidence of either this House or the profession outside in the integrity of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. That is completely intact and not under question. The anxiety relates to what is not being disclosed and what is not being dealt with and, therefore, who is actually being put at risk.

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[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I too support this amendment, although like the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Turnberg, I would much prefer to see Clause 53 deleted from the Bill. Throughout my professional career I have been familiar with the expertise of the former Public Health Laboratory Service. It conducted research, carried out microbiological surveillance, protected the population of this country from epidemics and so on, looked after the safety of our water supplies, and indeed undertook a huge number of other activities. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, chaired that body with great ability and distinction.

I just do not understand the purpose of the Government in abolishing its successor, the Health Protection Agency, which has continued to follow that pattern and to supervise the work of laboratories across the country which were formerly part of the Public Health Laboratory Service. Again, it is difficult to understand what the purpose is of abolishing a body that has proved to be so effective, which continues to give excellent service and which, as other speakers have said, attracts external research funding. If it were to be absorbed into the Government under the Secretary of State, I believe that it would be less able to fulfil its functions and to carry out the distinguished research in which it has been involved over many years. For that reason, while I strongly support the proposal that Clause 53 should no longer stand part of the Bill, if—for the reasons that I hope can be explained by the noble Earl—the Government decide that that clause should remain, it is crucial that we have an amendment such as the one before us in order to preserve the activities of such a vital scientific institution.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 260, but I should like also to talk about the problem of abolishing the Health Protection Agency. I must declare an interest because at the moment my daughter is on a placement there and is most impressed by the work that she has seen. There will be a very specific problem for the Health Protection Agency if it is not completely independent, and that relates to Medical Research Council research funding. If the agency is part of the Department of Health, it will find it more difficult to secure MRC funding. That may also apply to Wellcome funding, but the problem will be particularly acute with regard to funding from the MRC, which is the highest rated funding that the agency can get.

Also, as has already been said, the agency is internationally renowned and recognised for the excellence of its work and looks set to bring in more work to the UK. It is now working with the World Health Organisation on disaster planning. In planning for new disasters that might take place, it is important that countries know what other countries are going to be doing. We have sea borders, but if there is a massive disaster in another country we cannot go to its assistance if we do not know how its systems work. The Health Protection Agency is the leading body in this work on behalf of the UK. It seems very short-sighted to do anything that would destabilise this organisation.

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[Lord Warner]

I do not wish to have any commercial-in-confidence information and I am sure my friends do not either. We want to know what is at risk out of the £150 million the Health Protection Agency is getting now under the new arrangements. If you can guarantee, in writing, that Public Health England is not at risk of losing any of that money I think we will be much more confident. We do not want the details of the commercially sensitive stuff we just want the global figure and the assurances of what it is at risk of losing.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

Can we also have the assurance that it will be eligible in the future to apply for a broad range of funding even if currently it does not hold a grant from a particular grant-giving body? I think that that applies to the MRC.

[Baroness Northover]

I hope the cameras are not shining down on this piece of paper of mine so I can try to give you some of the information that may be less commercially sensitive: there are organisations such as the Wellcome Trust and Research Councils UK. Noble Lords should be very reassured as to how this will work, but as a very junior Minister I have to be extremely careful.

The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, flagged this up, I took it back and asked for a breakdown of the funding the Health Protection Agency gets. I asked in every instance what would happen in the future and I have a comprehensive answer because I thought it was extremely important. I hope noble Lords will be reassured both by my probing and these answers, even if I dare not reveal them all. I hope we can therefore write and reassure noble Lords that those working for Public Health England will indeed have access to the same kind of grants that they have at the moment.

Amendments 257A and 257B are minor and technical government amendments to Clause 54. These amendments would allow the Secretary of State or the Northern Ireland department acting alone to exercise functions in relation to biological substances for the whole of the United Kingdom. I was asked about sub-national structures. Indeed, Public Health England will have hubs. The precise details of these arrangements will be published shortly. As stated in Healthy Lives, Healthy People, we will provide further detail on the operating model for Public Health England.

I was also asked about emergencies. As I mentioned on the previous occasion when we debated public health, Public Health England will act on behalf of the Secretary of State as a category 1 responder. It will also be able to offer support or leadership in dealing with local incidents short of a full-blown emergency.

Reference was made to one or two other areas. If noble Lords will forgive me, I will write to them to sweep up what needs to be covered. I hope that noble Lords are reassured by what I have said. It is extremely important to the Government and to both Ministers in the Lords concerned with this matter that Public Health England is very strong and has the necessary independence. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, put it, it should not be the mouthpiece of the Government. It needs to be able to conduct expert research. I hope that I have reassured noble Lords who have raised these very important points that all this is built into the Bill, and that the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.