Ukraine (International Relations and Defence Committee Report)

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Thursday 6th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, I also have the privilege of being a member of the International Relations and Defence Committee. I will confine my remarks in this debate to one of the points in chapter 3 of our report, “Nurturing partnerships”. This looks at the concept of defence in a more holistic and big-picture way than just the size of the Armed Forces or the supply chains and capability of weapons, crucial though these things self-evidently are.

Alliances, partnerships and reputation also underpin our defence posture and, in the case of Ukraine, have exposed an important weakness when we consider the situation globally and long-term. We need to think very carefully about the response of the countries which we generally call the global South to the support from the UK for Ukraine, partly so that a rounded view of the current situation can take place, but also so that the UK in formulating its future defence strategies and capabilities can be realistic about those alliances, partnerships and reputational risks on which our engagement in any future combat situation might depend.

As the report states:

“International engagement is integral to deterrence and escalation management”.


At the time of the report’s publication—I am certainly not going to go into the astonishing change in voting behaviour by the US at the UN recently—the UN’s 193 member states had voted on six emergency special session resolutions on Ukraine. Most countries supported the first of these, which condemned Russia’s invasion, with only one-quarter of states not in favour. All those that abstained or voted against were countries in Africa, Latin America, the Middle East and south-east Asia: the global South. This pattern held in subsequent votes and few countries in any of those regions have imposed any sanctions on Russia or given any material support to Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Russia has been able to divide and rule between the positions of the West on one hand and of the global South on the other, by talking up the Soviet Union’s historical support for decolonisation, attracting support particularly in Africa and Asia. Our report quotes a former Portuguese Minister, who said:

“Ukraine’s plight would receive a lot more sympathy in the Global South if it were presented as a war of national liberation … if you described Russia as the last European empire”.

While the UK has been reluctant to embrace this narrative, Russia has gone full speed ahead with diplomatic initiatives to court and secure support from the global South.

For example, it held a Russia-Africa summit and parliamentary conference in 2023 and described a new foreign policy approach in opposition to the so-called western neocolonialism. It also held the first ever Russia-Latin America conference in the same year. This has resulted in countries of the global South feeling aggrieved at what is perceived to be a distracting concern of the West with Russian aggression. They would prefer to see attention towards issues such as debt and climate change, rather than what is being viewed as western hypocrisy and double standards, particularly towards the suffering of people in regions of the world other than Ukraine.

Evidence we received from the Henry Jackson Society suggested that these undesirable trends could be shifted by a more assertive role by the UK in the Security Council and the G7, away from a subordinate position of reliance on the US, and stressed the importance of maintaining a physical presence in regions of potential conflict.

I suggest that this all adds up to a clear pointer that the Government’s recent decision to fund greater defence spending—vital though that must surely be—by raiding the international aid budget might be short-sighted and ultimately self-defeating. If the UK’s future defence capability, strategy, deterrence and engagement are to command the respect of global leadership rather than risk a global cold shoulder, we will need a more holistic definition of defence and the support, not the cynicism, of the global South. We should pay more attention to Latin America and avoid short-changing Africa. On the surface, I can see that that sounds literally miles away from our defence agenda, but the interconnectedness is now more important to understand than ever before. I look forward to the Minister’s comments on these points.

Afghan Special Forces Relocation Review

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, the review of unsuccessful claims under the ARAP scheme was meant to cover all cases, not just the Triples. Can the Minister please tell the House how many interpreters who worked with our Armed Forces and how many British Council staff have also had the decision on their claim for relocation reversed as a result of this review?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

This review dealt with the Triples; interpreters and others were outside its scope. For people who are making or have made asylum claims, there are opportunities for them to claim asylum through those processes, and there are appeals processes within that. The interpreters and others that the noble Baroness mentioned were not within scope of this review.

Former Afghan Special Forces: Deportation

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

In the interests of brevity, I quite agree.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House why it is no longer possible to provide a breakdown of the jobs of people applying for relocation under ARAP? It is impossible for us now to tell what the success or failure rate is among members of the Triples, or those who do any other job. After all, for the past 10 years or so and until recently, I have been able to find out exactly how many Afghan interpreters have been relocated. Why is the data not now collected on how many applicants are soldiers, interpreters or anything else?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very good point. The accuracy of the data held on large numbers of people requires double- checking and checking again. At the heart of approval under ARAP is the accuracy of exactly what these individuals did.

Afghan Interpreters: UK Relocation

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Goldie on 28 April (HL15285), what plans they have for considering applications for relocation to the United Kingdom from the 15 Afghan interpreters who have fled to a third country.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Afghan relocations and assistance policy for locally engaged staff requires applicants to be in Afghanistan, because that is where they are likely to face the greatest risk. The Government keep the Immigration Rules under regular reviews, and officials from the Ministry of Defence continue to work with the Home Office to consider options to support those under threat. We will always consider exceptionally compelling and compassionate circumstances on a case-by-case basis, as demonstrated by recent relocations from third countries.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, although I thank the Government for and congratulate them on the excellent programme that they are currently rolling out with the RAF to rescue the majority of our Afghan interpreters, I implore the Minister to put this last piece of the jigsaw in place and offer the same chance of relocation to the 15 who arguably need it most, having been so terrorised by Taliban threats that they fled to a third country. There is a precedent—we rescued one interpreter stranded in Greece—so will the Government immediately establish channels of communication with the 15 so that their cases can also be assessed?

Afghanistan

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

We will continue to stand with the people of Afghanistan to support a more stable, peaceful future for the country, and we wholeheartedly support the United States-led efforts to energise the peace process. We have been clear that the Taliban must engage meaningfully in a dialogue with the Afghan Government. We have been equally clear that, in going forward, the Afghan Government must respect and protect the advances which have been made in respect of women and children.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, troop withdrawal is guaranteed to exacerbate the danger to Afghan interpreters who have helped our Armed Forces. The new relocation and assistance policy is welcome, but can the Minister reassure the House that the embassy staff administering it will proactively identify interpreters needing protection who could be in danger if they approach the embassy for help? Can she also confirm that the new scheme covers family members and that it will absolutely not be contracted out to a private company?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very important point. I have paid tribute before and do so again to her enduring interest in this issue. The relocations and assistance policy, which as she knows was updated last year and launched at the beginning of this month, is open to all our current and former locally employed staff in Afghanistan, irrespective of date, role or length of service. As she is aware, they must satisfy certain criteria, but it is important that any of these staff feeling anxious should contact the embassy in Kabul however they can. I also assure her that eligible locally employed staff can bring certain family members with them to the UK.

British Armed Forces: Iraqi Interpreters

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Monday 1st February 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of reports that Iraqi interpreters are being targeted by militia groups because of their work with foreign militaries; and what steps they are taking to protect such interpreters who have worked for the British Armed Forces.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, although the Ministry of Defence does not employ interpreters directly in Iraq, its contractors are held to the highest standards. The MoD takes any breach of personal security extremely seriously, and we are currently investigating the allegations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, last year’s breach of security data revealed interpreters’ IDs and car number plates, increasing their exposure to death threats, including at Covid-19 checkpoints. Can the Minister confirm that the private contractors who should be responsible for the interpreters’ safety are included within the scope of the investigation? Also, will she persuade her Home Office colleagues to upgrade their assessment of the risk to interpreters, currently rated as low, so that those who want a UK visa stand a chance of getting one?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I can confirm to the noble Baroness that the investigation will involve speaking to the contractor. Steps have already been taken to interview personnel concerned with Operation Shader who were in the camp between January and March 2020. The position is a little complicated in that the contractor changed, and therefore it is necessary to speak to the former contractor as well. We hope to be able to give an update by the end of February, and I undertake to report to the noble Baroness at that time. We constantly assess the risk that our interpreters are exposed to, and we have protections in place with our contractor to ensure that the best possible safeguards are afforded to them.

British Armed Forces: Global Britain

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Thursday 21st January 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, our Armed Forces are a shining example of how to teach, learn and use foreign language skills. The Defence Centre for Languages and Culture teaches 40 different languages. Will the Minister confirm that its funding is secure? Local interpreters are vital, but lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan led to a step change in our own language training, essential also for peacekeeping, conflict prevention and humanitarian aid. Language skills are required for promotion, conform to NATO proficiency standards, and attract a financial reward. Will the Minister ensure that this best practice is more vigorously disseminated to promote more widespread cultural change under the banner of global Britain, including throughout the Civil Service? Our Armed Forces show that multilingualism is not just useful but valued—a really important part of what global Britain should look like.

Afghanistan: Locally Employed Civilians

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd September 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the announcement on 19 September that eligibility for the Afghanistan Locally Employed Civilians Ex-Gratia Scheme is to be extended, whether locally employed civilians who have left Afghanistan and now reside in a third country will be eligible.

The Question was considered in a hybrid proceeding.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, Home Office Immigration Rules stipulate that applications for relocation under the cross-government Afghan ex-gratia scheme for former locally employed civilians must be made in Afghanistan. This is due to the challenges involved with the capability of the Afghan authorities to verify the documents of applicants who are outside Afghanistan as well as difficulties in completing the vetting process for them. Therefore, former locally employed civilians no longer residing in Afghanistan are not eligible.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the decision to expand the scheme, especially for interpreters, without whom our Armed Forces could not have done their job. I know from the time I served on the LEC Assurance Committee that there is a genuine desire to get all this right. Will the Minister reconsider finding a way to include in the ex-gratia scheme those interpreters who felt so unsafe and threatened by the Taliban that they fled to a third country? They too deserve our gratitude and the offer of relocation. May I also ask the Minister whether the Government will guarantee that all children of those who qualify for relocation, but who have turned 18 during the lengthy process of application and additional delays because of Covid, will still be entitled to come here with their parents?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness and I join her in paying tribute to the tremendous support offered by locally employed civilians as our interpreters, working hand in hand with us in Afghanistan; they have been absolutely invaluable. On her first question, as I indicated, there are genuine administrative difficulties in relation to applications from third-country residents. Whether some are able to produce documentation or evidence of their valid entitlement to claim is a matter that would certainly be looked at, but determining the outcome would be a Home Office decision.

On her second point, spouses and children are included in the expanded scheme. I do not have specific information on the technical issue of whether children who have now attained the age 18 would still be allowed to come. However, she has raised an important point and I undertake to write to her.

Afghan Interpreters: Security Clearance

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Goldie on 22 October 2019 (HL19), whether the review of security clearance policies for Afghan interpreters who have been relocated to the United Kingdom has been completed; and if so, what was the outcome.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to confirm that the Ministry of Defence has revised its national security vetting policy for all interpreters who deploy overseas in support of military operations. Afghan interpreters who have relocated to the United Kingdom will now no longer be disadvantaged for not meeting the previous residency and nationality requirements. The Government will also now take account of previous loyal service alongside UK Armed Forces overseas.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, I am relieved by and pleased to hear that Answer, although I find it odd that if residency and nationality for five years are no longer a barrier to security clearance, a minimum of five years’ residency is still required as proof of honesty and integrity—as set out in the Minister’s letter to me earlier this month. What is the difference and why can the two not be aligned? Also, I ask about the interpreters who remain in Afghanistan and do not qualify for the provision to relocate to the UK under the excellent ex-gratia scheme, but who might still be vulnerable to intimidation and death threats from the Taliban. Since responsibility for interpreters was contracted out to the private company thebigword, protection and the general duty of care for them has not matched the previous government-run scheme. When will this contract be reviewed and what due diligence will be undertaken to ensure that the previous intimidation policy will at the very least be restored, if not improved?

[Baroness Goldie]

As I indicated to the noble Baroness, in determining security vetting the Government will take account of previous loyal service alongside UK Armed Forces overseas. A variety of criteria are applied for UK clearance. It is for other groupings such as NATO to determine what satisfies them. On the point about thebigword and monitoring, I reassure her that the Ministry of Defence holds regular governance and assurance meetings with the contractor and has performance metrics in place to ensure that standards are met. On the intimidation angle, she will be aware that the UK Government have been at the forefront of providing support—and to considerable effect. In addition to the checks that the Government expect the contractor to carry out, there is an intimidation unit in Afghanistan, manned 24/7, to deal with any situations of concern. She asked for some specific figures; I will check Hansard and undertake to write to her.

Afghan Interpreters: Security Clearance

Baroness Coussins Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will modify and expedite the necessary security clearance for Afghan interpreters formerly employed by UK Armed Forces in Afghanistan and relocated to the UK who have been prevented from securing professional work with NATO forces.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, we are reviewing our national security vetting policies alongside wider work on the Government’s vetting reform programme. The MoD’s review will include an assessment of the criteria applied to interpreters, specifically those deployed in operational theatres.

[Baroness Coussins]

My Lords, surely the loyalty and trustworthiness of these Afghan interpreters has already been tested beyond doubt. The benefit of relocation to the UK under what I agree is a very good redundancy scheme is seriously undermined by reports in Saturday’s Times that some interpreters have been reduced to taking low-paid work in fast-food outlets instead of the specialist linguistic work for which they are uniquely qualified. Can the Minister confirm that the security clearance criteria of 10 years’ residence and five years’ British nationality are discretionary? If so, does he agree that there is an overwhelming case for speed, flexibility and generosity so that these interpreters can do the jobs that we must need them to do as much as they want to do them?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Cabinet Office policy contains guidelines for appropriate nationality and UK residency periods for prospective applicants, but they are not absolute requirements and should be considered on a case-by-case basis for each individual. It is important to understand that the process of security clearance is a matter of assessing not simply an individual’s trustworthiness but the degree of risk to that individual in the circumstances of the employment that they seek, and the security measures that would be needed to protect that individual and potentially their family as well.