Age Appropriate Design Code

Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Monday 30th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

The noble Lord brings up two very important subjects which we must sort out. These come under the remit not of the ICO but of the online harms White Paper. Alongside that, the gambling question mentioned by the noble Lord is also being looked at—the DCMS Select Committee produced a report on immersive and addictive technologies. The Government are going to look at that very closely before they make a response.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has given us the critical path for what we now expect to happen. Enormous claims have been made for the verification code in question. There have been four Secretaries of State at DCMS in the time it has taken to get the Data Protection Act on to the statute book. All kinds of things have been happening in the political world and I am trying to learn how to speak very politely and humanely about these and other matters in your Lordships’ House; but certainly, it is an unsettled time. In addition, there is evidence of pushback from certain internet companies that are reluctant to go this way. In the light of the uncertainties, the change-over of the head of the department and all the rest of it, is the Minister prepared to give us some real reassurance that the timetable will be met and that the Government’s programme when we begin the new Session will include a commitment to taking this forward? There is little that we could all want more than the safety of our children, especially as this concerns their relationship to and use of the internet.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

As the noble Lord rightly said, the safety of our children is paramount. As we know, this issue is completely cross-party. I know that the Government have every intention of making sure that implementation takes place. Sadly, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is not in her place today; she is the real expert on this subject. However, she sent a brief note to all Peers who are interested. I would like to read what she said because it shows how important this matter is: “The Government has rightly committed to making the UK the safest place in the world for children to be online, from the UN special rapporteur on privacy to the broadband commission, the OECD and the US Federal Trade Commission, currently reviewing its own children’s privacy rules. Policymakers around the world are watching the code’s progress and waiting to follow to our lead. Introducing a strong code would demonstrate that wider regulation is politically and technically possible”.

Electronic Commerce Directive (Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2018

Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her very clear introduction. This is a very interesting regulation—for aficionados. As she spoke in detail about it, that introduces the country of origin principle for discussion. I understand completely what the draft SI is meant to do. I expect that somebody in DDCMS woke up in a cold sweat and suddenly realised that there was quite a backlog of criminal offences in Scotland and Northern Ireland that needed to be brought within the scope of the e-commerce legislation. Such cold sweats can occur, even in the best-run government departments. We should not impede the passing of this SI simply because some of the offences are rather ancient. We are not dealing just with 2015 offences.

Of much more interest for those who are currently debating the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill is the whole question of the future application of the country of origin principle. After all, starting with the e-commerce directive, the EU Commission aimed to create an effective single market, particularly in the field of online retail. It is extremely pertinent to what is going to happen next. The current law is set out in the EU electronic commerce directive 2000, implemented into UK law in 2002. The regime covers almost every commercial website and is not restricted to online buying and selling but covers any service provided for remuneration at a distance using electronic means. On top of that, we have EU-derived distance selling and cookie regulation.

Much e-commerce law is implemented largely through secondary legislation, which will be preserved after Brexit takes place. However, the EU is obliged to revisit the directive every two years, so a divergence between the EU and the UK is possible. Therefore, the question arises as to whether we are going to need some sort of adequacy ruling for country of origin, rather in the way that we will probably have such a ruling for data protection. Indeed, is country of origin going to be available to us in the first place? Does the e-commerce directive fall away post Brexit? As I am sure the Minister is aware, country of origin principles applied to broadcasting will fall away unless there is a special deal which breaks through the normal cultural exceptions put into free trade agreements. So I am a little pessimistic about that.

Then, of course, the wagon rolls on. The consumer protection co-operation regulation was adopted by the Commission in December 2017. A regulation on addressing unjustified geo-blocking was adopted this February. There are two legislative proposals on the supply of digital content, and on online and other distance sales of goods, which the Commission proposed in December 2015 and are currently under negotiation in EU institutions. What are the Government’s intentions in respect of the new EU digital single market developments? Does they intend to stay aligned with e-commerce law in the EU? If so, how? If not, what will the consequences be? I would be extremely interested to hear from the Minister.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, must first hear from me. Perhaps that will give the Minister a little time. I am very grateful for the way in which an aficionado made me aware of this welter of material relating to the way that information flows and the activities that benefit from that flow of information across Europe in so many fields.

This SI is relentlessly logical. I cannot understand why the law on such important and serious matters as human trafficking, prostitution, the care of children, threatening comments, intimate images—all those things that are listed here—came on to the statute book in Brussels in 2000 and here in 2002 but it has taken us until 2018 to deal with it. The country of origin thing may be part of the answer, I do not know. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, just this morning we received a visit from commercial broadcasting people who are terribly worried about this country of origin principle and how it will affect their business in the future.

This SI is intended to ensure the smooth functioning of the internal market and to ensure consistency with EU law—all of that—while we are still members of the EU. I share the bemusement of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about what might happen afterwards. He talked about adequacy, the future application of country of origin—will that continue?—and possible divergence that may occur as two different regimes pursue ways forward according to their own respective best lights, which may not be the same.

Of course, Brexit is raising a whole host of details of this kind, which make us aware of how silly we were to go down this road in the first place. Perhaps that remark ought not to go on the record—it does not belong to this debate—but I could not forbear from making it. But here we are with something that makes obvious sense but raises questions of concern that lie beyond its scope and its date. We wonder about both the scope and the date and what will happen to us all very soon. But I have no hesitation in supporting this statutory instrument.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Griffiths, for their contributions, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who went off on one, I think. He will probably not think that the answer is good enough but, as we know, the UK will be leaving the digital single market but we will continue to work closely with the EU on digital issues as we build on an existing strong relationship in the future economic partnership. We will seek an ambitious agreement with the EU that enables the best possible access to each other’s markets. There is mutual advantage in the continued close relationship between the UK and the EU on digital issues and the advancement of digital transformation across Europe.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Lord Griffiths of Burry Port

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 20th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, it is an extraordinary list of amendments that address things in great detail; they are all about tidying up and working things out as we go along. Since that is what we try to do as often as we can, it is nice to see the effort that has been made and hours that have been spent. Much of it is logical and needs no further discussion, but we have in respect of amendments in the range of Amendment 171, and so on, a bit of a worry about the notion that personal data is processed for special purposes—journalism, academic, artistic or literary purposes—and that there are exemptions in place so that the commissioner must first determine whether processing is for a special purpose before taking further enforcement action.

We have always understood that the provisions at this point are only asking in this Bill to replicate the conditions obtaining in such cases in the 1998 legislation. This particular detail makes it seem as if that might not be the case, because we have submissions from various people in the media to suggest that, while they understand the regulations, to step in before the material is put together to make this determination feels a bit threatening. Can the Minister guarantee that the provisions in this Bill are identical with those in the 1998 Act?

There is not an adequate mention, again, according to people in the field, of the relation of photography and photojournalism to written journalism. Could that be thought about, too? If everything is the same, we have no further questions but, if not, could the Minister tell us exactly what the differences are and whether she can write to us so that we may know what they are?

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

As the noble Lord said, this particular group of amendments is where personal data is processed for special purposes for journalism, academic, artistic or literary purposes. There are certain exemptions in place, so the commissioner must first determine whether processing is for special purposes before taking further enforcement action. A special purposes determination can be appealed to a court, not a tribunal; these amendments correct the Bill as only a court, not tribunals, are relevant. They also make technical corrections to ensure compatibility with Scots law. The definition of special purposes proceedings is also widened slightly so that special purposes can be asserted in a wider range of situations.

I think that I have inspiration coming from my right hand side. The noble Lord mentioned photojournalism, which is included in the data—I think that that is what he meant.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port]

I sympathise with the Minister, who sought inspiration from behind, because it is what I do all the time. Those who have expressed anxiety to us are worried that pressure will be put on them as programme makers and investigative journalists prior to publication and issuing their material in edited form, whereas currently they are subject to the regulation once that material has been put together. That is the area where anxieties have been expressed, and we need some reassurance on that point.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

The best thing that I can do is to have a look and get back to the noble Lord on those points, if that is okay.