Welfare of Animals at the Time of Killing (England and Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch(4 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing this SI and for the helpful briefing that she organised beforehand. We have debated the more detailed SI—which this SI now seeks to amend—on a previous occasion, and I do not intend to repeat the original issues we raised at that time.
To echo my noble friend Lord Rooker, it does raise the question of why the obligations under the UK-Ireland common travel area were not picked up and incorporated at that time. I agree with my noble friend that, to use his words, it “beggars belief” that this was not picked up beforehand. I also agree that it is possible that other professions covered by other SIs might similarly have been missed out, given that we are dealing here with a pretty fundamental agreement.
When we originally discussed this issue in March, the Government estimated that around 200 EU nationals working here as slaughterers would have to apply for a new UK certificate of competence, at the cost of £225. Have these figures been updated and is there an increased danger of UK slaughterhouses not having sufficient staff to deal with the throughput of animals? I agree with the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, that there is a particular concern about the future of smaller abattoirs—only one part of which is the issue of staffing. Nevertheless, I should be interested to have confirmation from the Minister that the Government are alive to this issue and that it is being addressed. I also agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, that halal meal should be properly labelled. She has raised important issues there.
I want to ask about a separate relatively small point. In the letter to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, the Government said that there were only about two applications a year from the Republic; the noble Baroness repeated that figure today. How was that figure calculated? It seems particularly low, given that we are led to believe there is a relatively free flow of work across the border, for example. How was the figure estimated and might it change in the future?
Finally, I will address the issue of devolved interests. Paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:
“Animal welfare is a devolved matter”—
which we know, while the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report said that Scotland and Wales were making similar changes to those proposed here to ensure consistency. Again, the Minister repeated that, so why does it say in the Explanatory Memorandum, at paragraph 4.1:
“The territorial extent of this instrument is England, Wales and Northern Ireland”,
whereas at paragraph 4.2 it says:
“The territorial application … is England and Northern Ireland”,
only? Can I have clarification of the status of Wales in how this SI will be applied? I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this short and interesting debate. They have brought up many interesting issues that are not part of this SI, but I will still try to answer some of them.
I could not agree more with my noble friend Lord De Mauley: our welfare standards are very important. I think he said that he was involved in an APPG on small abattoirs. That is fascinating and a very important part of this. As we know, in England small abattoirs are so important to local farmers, as they do not have to travel a long way with their animals. It also means that they know the slaughterers in the abattoirs. In fact, when I take my sheep to our local abattoir, I am absolutely thrilled that I know everybody working there. I have known them for a long time and am absolutely sure that the welfare of the animals is tip-tip-top. I will certainly take that back to the department.
My noble friend also mentioned the travel of live animals, which again is a concern, as we know. I cannot say too much about that at the moment because we are in consultation on it, but we certainly feel that the live export of animals for fattening and slaughter needs to be looked into. We believe that it is possible to send animals on long journeys while simultaneously respecting the need for good animal husbandry. Sometimes they may travel for 30 or 40 hours, as we know, and in some cases 50 hours, which is not compatible with animal welfare. So it is certainly being looked into at the moment. In fact, when this SI was considered at the other end, my right honourable friend the Minister, Zac Goldsmith, mentioned that he was very involved in several round tables going on at the moment. He is talking to stakeholders and finding out the standards that might be changed as far as that is concerned.
I always love it when the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, stands up to talk, because when I first came here I was a Defra whip and he was enormously helpful to me. Quite often, I had to stand up and answer questions that I had no idea about, so I used to go to him and he would tell me what I should say and give me the answers. But I do not have him to ask today, because he is asking me the questions; we are slightly changed around.
The noble Lord asked about the common travel area and I hear what he says about it. In fact, the common travel area predates our joint accession to the EU. It offers Irish citizens the right to live and work in the UK and vice versa. The recognition of qualifications is necessary to enable individuals to exercise their right to work. Both Governments have publicly committed to protecting the rights associated with the common travel area. In May 2019, the UK and Irish Governments signed a memorandum of understanding reaffirming their commitment to it, as well as acknowledging that the recognition of professional qualifications was an essential facilitator of the right to work.
The noble Lord also mentioned other people wanting to work in the common travel area and asked how that would be affected. That is a BEIS competence. There is a comprehensive process going on at the moment and Defra is engaging with it.
My noble friend Lord Caithness and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked about vet standards. The Home Office decision to place the veterinary profession on its shortage occupation list means that it will be easier for UK employers to attract international veterinary expertise. It will also help to ensure that the UK can continue to maintain high standards of animal health and welfare, veterinary public health advice and biosecurity. We have already made operability amendments to the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 to ensure that the mechanisms are in place to recognise equivalent certificates from anywhere in the world.
The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, talked about halal and kosher labelling. The Government will not accept labelling changes that could put up the cost of food for religious communities. We expect industry to provide consumers with the information to enable them to make informed choices about the food they eat. The Government are aware that there is public concern about meat from animals being slaughtered in accordance with religious beliefs being sold to consumers who do not require their meat to be prepared in that way. My right honourable friend the Minister, Zac Goldsmith, was asked a similar question when this SI went through in the House of Commons. He said:
“The previous Secretary of State initiated a series of roundtables with stakeholders from across the board. Those discussions continue and I am now involved in them. I have had some very good meetings with stakeholders in the last month. It is not the right time to pre-empt what we will deliver as a consequence of that, but we will deliver steps that I think will satisfy the stakeholders’ concerns and improve animal welfare at the point of slaughter”.—[Official Report, Commons Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee, 29/10/19; col. 6.]
Environment and Wildlife (Legislative Functions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2019
Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to her new role. I look forward to working with her on many the hours of primary and secondary Defra legislation that we have before us. I am sure that they will be instructive to both of us. I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, because we accept that this is just an exercise in correcting mistakes. We have always been concerned that errors and mistakes would creep in because of the speed with which some of this legislation is being pushed through, but we would not want to say or do anything that jeopardises the CITES agreement, which is very important to us.
The Minister will be pleased to know that I do not have any questions, but I echo the obvious point, which is that these mistakes should not happen and that there should be a better checking mechanism in the first place. I hope that this will be the last time that we will see this SI and that we can put it to bed.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
I thank noble Lords for their comments. I could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, about the importance of CITES. It is doing some great work.
I can only apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell. Perhaps I should be writing 50 lines that they can correct if they are wrong and I will have to write them over again. In its defence, the department has had to prepare an enormous number of SIs, most of which have been done absolutely excellently. I can only apologise for these mistakes.
The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, asked about the dangers in the way the powers can be used. As far as that is concerned, there will always be parliamentary scrutiny, whatever decision is made. We can feel safe in that respect.
I thank noble Lords very much for their queries.
Pesticides (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing this SI and for the helpful briefing she organised beforehand. I declare an interest as chair of Rothamsted Enterprises, which carries out crop and crop protection research.
The use of pesticides is of huge public interest and has significant environmental and public health challenges. It is therefore important that we take the issue seriously. This SI is a part of a package of SIs that we have dealt with in previous months. They have raised concerns about whether the Secretary of State’s powers are in any way equivalent to the EU’s thorough product evaluation processes. We remain concerned that the application of the best scientific advice and external audit powers are missing from these proposals. While this SI makes relatively minor changes, our overarching concerns remain. What assessment has been made of the national capacity, including specialist scientific expertise, to enable the UK to operate a stand-alone regime that would be truly equivalent to that which exists in the EU at the moment?
Can the Minister also explain why the SI has been drafted to read that the Secretary of State “may” rather than “shall” obtain expert advice? What discussions are taking place to create a shared register of approved pesticides and mutual recognition schemes across the EU and the UK? I absolutely agree with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, about future alignment once we leave the EU. He rightly says that this SI cannot be the end of the road, because, as we speak, other amendments are probably being made to EU pesticides legislation. Almost inevitably, we will be revisiting this. When does the Minister feel that we will be able to draw a line and move from one regime to another? Future close alignment is vital.
Can the Minister update the House on the progress of the replacement for the maximum residue levels system? When will that database go live and how will people be authorised to use it? Can she outline the process by which active substances will be authorised and their acceptable levels determined when we are operating under a UK-only regime? What additional funding has been allocated to the Health and Safety Executive, the Environment Agency and Natural England to ensure that they have the capacity to provide the best scientific and policy advice? Time and again we have debated the capacity and funding of those organisations and whether we have sufficient scientists available to provide the necessary expert advice.
Can the Minister advise what the future reporting requirements for the UK Government will be? It is understandable that the UK will no longer report to the European Commission, but what body will replace that reporting requirement? Is it envisaged that the office for environmental protection will have that statutory role? Finally, as we have debated before, we do not accept the proposition in the EM that exit date is to be 31 October. It makes sense to amend the wording in the SI to derive a more prosaic phrase, “the date two years after the date after exit day”. Is that wording now to be used more widely in SIs to avoid the technical nightmare of having constantly to revisit the date in legislation? I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for their questions. They both asked what the process will be. Collectively, our EU exit SIs will put in place a stand-alone, independent regulatory regime under which we will make our own decisions. This gives effect to them in our own national register. We will make our own decisions and be able to take account of other regulatory assessments to inform our decision-making.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I would like more. I am sorry to push the Minister. First, what will be the process within the UK before we reach the final decision over approval? What stages will a new product, for example, have to go through? Secondly, something will be happening very much in parallel across the EU, where it will be doing its own assessments. At what point do we share information so that we are not doing our own unique research when that research already exists elsewhere? How much collaboration will there be? I am still not clear from what the Minister is saying what those stages, and the checks and balances, will be. Although the EU’s process sometimes appears long-winded, it gives confidence that thorough checks and balances are in operation. I am not sure that the Minister has expressed that in the new regime being proposed.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
Part of that comes from the fact that the SI is basically talking about a no-deal Brexit. Those other questions and queries will presumably come with there being a deal of some kind, when those issues will be discussed further. This SI is basically dealing, as we know, with a no-deal Brexit. Inspiration has come over my right shoulder, but I do not know whether it will be any help. Industry already produces different standards—for example, the supermarkets and their regulations—but the main answer is that this SI is basically for a no-deal Brexit. Any future conversations will stem from what is decided with the deal, when presumably we will have the transition period and carry on talking about this.
Food Safety: Glyphosate
Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
What my noble friend says is true. Each pesticide has specific conditions of authorisation, which are set out on its label. The level of safety must be achieved without reliance on training or special equipment. As my noble friend says, for domestic use glyphosate is very much diluted and comes mainly in trigger packs, which means that it is very safe for use.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, in the light of the conflicting research which I think has been acknowledged exists on this matter, is not the common-sense approach to apply the precautionary principle, given the potential danger? Should we not only take immediate steps in any way we can to limit the use of glyphosate but make sure that the public are much more aware of the potential threat to their health, while the ongoing research and licensing process is reviewed?
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
If the European Commission approves glyphosate, all member states will be required to reassess every single product that contains it. These products would get new authorisation only if they fully meet current safety standards. We will not know what is going to happen until we know more about whether the European Commission will vote before June. If it does not vote before June, the licence will not be allowed in this country.
Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2016
Debate between Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
Before I explain the specific changes, I remind noble Lords why the Government are amending these regulations or, to be precise, deregulating. The Government remain committed to reducing burdens on businesses—none more so than in the waste sector. Today, we are considering the important topic of packaging. We all use packaging in our day-to-day lives and it serves many essential purposes. These include keeping our food fresher for longer, protecting products from damage and providing security. For instance, the humble cucumber can have its shelf life extended by up to 14 days with proper packaging. Vacuum-packaging and shrink-wrapping can keep meat fresher for twice as long, and resealable packs prevent foods such as cheeses from drying out.
Packaging therefore has a key role to play in the prevention of waste. In addition, at the end of its useful life, packaging can be recycled into a number of new products including clothing, chairs, car parts or construction materials, and there is closed-loop packaging recycling such as bottle back to bottle. Like the valuable role of packaging, the changes we propose are equally important. They are deregulatory and part of this Government’s ongoing commitment to cutting unnecessary red tape. These particular changes stem from and build upon the earlier Red Tape Challenge initiative, and have the potential to deliver a net benefit to businesses of about £20.4 million over the next 10 years.
We know that around 10.38 tonnes of packaging were placed on to the UK market in 2013, and 64% of our packaging is currently recycled or recovered each year. Although it is difficult to be sure of exact costs for the financial damage of improperly disposing of packaging waste, we know that local authorities spend nearly £798 million a year clearing up litter, of which about 30% is packaging in some form.
Turning to the legislative changes, as I said, the Government want to do ever more to reduce waste and encourage the recycling of valuable secondary resources such as packaging. Importantly, we also want to streamline the processes that packaging producers have to go through to adhere to regulations. There are four main proposed changes. First, the removal of operational plans will remove the requirement for packaging compliance schemes, or directly registered producers of packaging, to provide operational plans. This change, subject to full take-up by industry, will reduce significantly administrative burdens, with a potential saving to business of up to £5 million over 10 years.
However, in order to ensure that packaging compliance schemes continue to function efficiently and effectively, we have made provision to retain some key safeguard elements by incorporating these within revised conditions of approval. There are three retained conditions in respect of compliance schemes, and they will ensure that our environment agencies are able to monitor the accuracy of information provided by scheme members; that compliance schemes acquire packaging recovery notes, or PRNs, and packaging export recovery notes, or PERNs, in a manner that least hinders the ability of operators to purchase them; and that compliance schemes preserve sufficient financial resources to maintain the necessary expertise to acquire PRNs or PERNs.
The second proposed change is to the approving body. This change will transfer the responsibility for the approvals process for packaging compliance schemes from the Government to the appropriate agency. Currently, the regulations require Defra to approve a packaging compliance scheme and for one of the environment agencies to register the scheme. Although this is a small transfer between government bodies and a small additional function for the agencies, the change will put both the approval and registration processes directly into the hands of those with the most appropriate expertise to best assess applications.
The third change is the delegation of sign-off arrangements. This will allow an approved person in a packaging business to delegate their responsibilities for signing off reports. This will remove a significant burden on business and will ensure that the authorisation for the signing of reports rests with the person who is the most appropriate and knowledgeable in the organisation. A quality assurance backstop will be put in place that requires the appropriate environment agency to be notified so that appropriate checks can be carried out.
The fourth change is the one-stop shop for packaging scheme application approvals. This will provide operators of packaging compliance schemes based in both Great Britain and Northern Ireland with the right to apply for approval from one UK approving body. This is in contrast to the present arrangement, where operators face the significant burden of having to make applications to two bodies. It will also allow the Northern Ireland Environment Agency to act on behalf of the British agency and vice versa.
The Government consider that the changes proposed in the order provide a significant opportunity for businesses to reduce their administrative burdens and costs. These changes will allow even greater focus by industry and regulators on what really matters: increasing our recycling rates, reducing waste, protecting our environment and continuing to build an economically strong and ever-more-resilient waste industry. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the amended regulations. On the face of it they appear to make sense. Certainly, the changes to the approving bodies, the extended sign-off arrangements and the one-stop shop for the devolved nations are broadly welcomed and have clearly received considerable support during the consultation. It seems that the claims of savings that will be made by these changes are slightly overegged, but I take the point that there is an established way of calculating such savings and I am not going to quibble about the methodology at this point. That is a matter for another day.
I have two main questions arising from the proposals. First, they remove the requirement to produce an operational plan, as the noble Baroness outlined. I appreciate that the current requirements may be unwieldy and overdetailed, but is it not probable that removing the operational plans altogether also removes a major discipline and pressure on packaging producers to comply with their obligations under the EU directive?
We all acknowledge, as did the noble Baroness, that the priority is to increase our rates of packaging recycling, so how does the complete removal of the operational plan help that? Might we not be better off replacing it with a simplified format that achieves the same objectives? How will its complete removal impact on the monitoring of performance and compliance of individual companies? The noble Baroness referred to that, but perhaps she will enunciate it a little further. Also, would we not be wiser to delay the changes to these regulations so that we can take account of the proposed extension of producer responsibility schemes in the Commission’s new circular economy package which relates to these measures?
Secondly, what more is being done to ensure that producers cover the full cost of processing their packaging waste? As I understand it, unlike the rest of Europe, in the UK, the producers’ fees cover only about 10% of their waste costs. As a result, a disproportionate cost for collecting and recycling falls on local authorities. This, in turn, means that much of the cost is met by taxpayers rather than the product manufacturers. This goes against the principles of producer responsibility as originally envisaged by the EU. What more are the Government doing to ensure that the costs fall where they belong: at the door of the manufacturers? What further pressures can we bring to bear to encourage excess and unnecessary packaging to be designed out before goods hit the marketplace in the first place?
This is a policy area where we cannot afford to be complacent, because we still have some way to go before we meet our EU targets. Therefore, it would be helpful if the Minister could make it clear what new levers will be introduced to drive up compliance and innovation in the sector. I realise that these latter points are slightly wide of the content of the new drafts before us today. Nevertheless, they are important and I look forward to her response.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for her remarks and for the fact that she broadly approves of what we are trying to do.
As regards operational plans, any producer who does not comply with their obligations will face enforcement action by the Environment Agency. We feel that the current operational plan does not add to the value of its function. We are very conscious of the circular economy in relation to recycling. Any amendment will not come into force until 2020 at the earliest. These deregulatory changes will reduce the burden on businesses ahead of that. I hope that that answers the noble Baroness’s questions. These additional regulations will allow the Environment Agency further to increase its focus on tackling those who may seek to skirt around or deliberately evade their obligations.
Another piece of inspiration has come from behind me. We acknowledge that producer responsibility costs do not all fall on producers, as they do in Europe, but our market-based system delivers comparable recycling rates. Does that answer the noble Baroness’s question?
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
I was suggesting that the cost is falling on the taxpayer, because local authorities have to do the collection rather than the product manufacturers. Is there anything more we can do about that?
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen
I may have to write to the noble Baroness to make sure that I get that exactly right for her. I commend the regulations to your Lordships.