BBC World Service

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the BBC World Service provides impartial, accurate news and journalism in 42 languages to 320 million people globally. It remains the world’s most trusted international news broadcaster. The Government recognise the World Service’s value as a soft power asset and its contribution to countering disinformation and ensuring access to free and impartial news. We value the emergency response services stood up recently in Gaza, Ukraine and Sudan to provide vital safety and security information.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. It is welcome that the Government have improved funding of the BBC World Service in the coming financial year, but is the Minister aware that in the past, cuts in the World Service have led to frequencies being withdrawn and immediately being taken over by the Russians and the Chinese in order to push out their propaganda? Surely, the BBC World Service is source of great strength to this country. Could we not have a long-term funding arrangement to secure what is, after all, one of Britain’s greatest assets?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend. Although decisions about where to operate and what channels to use are clearly for the BBC to make—it is independent of government in that way—it is a service that we have insufficiently valued and promoted over the years. I am pleased that we have been able to improve the situation somewhat so far, but I completely agree with my noble friend that a long-term solution is what is really needed.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, in her Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the Minister mentioned the issue of disinformation, which is of prime importance and obviously a threat to democracy around the world. What steps is she taking further to promote the BBC World Service as a trusted source of information?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very good question. At the moment, 75% of those who listen to the World Service live in places that do not have good levels of media freedom, so we need to work with the World Service to promote what it does, both around the world, as the noble Lord says, and here in the UK. I think more people would benefit from and feel pride in knowing what the World Service has done to counter disinformation around the world.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former director-general of the BBC. For nearly a century, the BBC World Service has been a key element of the UK’s soft power globally. For almost all of that time it was directly and completely funded by the FCO. Can the Minister articulate any justification at all for the World Service being funded in whole or in part by the UK licence fee payer?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is not a decision that this Government made. Looking back, it was a mistake to put that burden entirely on the licence fee payer. We are looking at long-term solutions and we are open-minded about what they might be, but I repeat: the important thing is that we preserve all that is good that the World Service does for us around the world, but it needs to be on a much more secure footing so that we do not have the annual discussions we have had to have. It needs to plan, and it needs security to enable it to continue to do the amazing work it does.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, there is a tension here between having an independent BBC, which we are all grateful for—indeed, that is part of its integrity—and it being part of our strategic soft power. Could the noble Baroness tell us a little bit more about the strategic approach His Majesty’s Government are taking to thinking about the key places we need to engage with, not least in countering the deliberate disinformation coming from China and Russia, which is fundamental to the future of our democracies?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that we maintain the independent position the BBC has, so that it makes its own decisions. However, this Government want to refresh the approach to soft power. We are establishing a soft power council, in which I hope the World Service will take part. From my point of view, it is absolutely legitimate for the Government to say that we are worried about these circumstances in these places and to share our understanding of situations around the world, and it is for the BBC to tell us to back off and to make its own decisions. My aim is to have a collaborative, respectful relationship with the BBC, preserving at all times its independence and ability to make its own choices.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the comments the Minister just made and thank the Leader for her response to me two weeks ago, when I raised concerns about World Service cuts in Lebanon. Does the Minister share my concern that, although the BBC World Service is critical for supporting civil society in many conflict areas, the more recent government development cuts of £2 billion—a reduction from 0.58% of GNI to 0.5%—could put at risk the very kind of programmes that support civil society resilience in many conflict areas? I welcome the extra support for the BBC World Service, but will the Minister make sure that there are not cuts elsewhere to programmes that support civil society in these critical vulnerable areas?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are reviewing development spend, as noble Lords would expect. We do not have the luxury of limitless funds to spend. We are spending a lot of our development money on housing people who arrive here in the UK for 12 months after their arrival. We need to get that spend down so that we can spend it much more wisely on preventing conflict, educating women and girls, supporting freedom of religion and belief, and all the other really positive, important work that we want to do in country. That is our aim.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests, past and present, as listed in the register. The Minister referred to a long-term strategy for the World Service. Such a document exists. I chaired a group commissioned by the then Foreign Secretary, Jeremy Hunt. This report got lost in one of those infrequent reshuffles of the last few years, but it stands today as a blueprint for enhancing the BBC World Service’s influence in exercising the great soft power that exists for Britain’s foreign policy. Will she dust it down and read it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing that to my attention. I was not aware that there was a strategy dating back to that time, but I commit to finding it and reading it.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister undertake to conduct and publish, before any future funding formula for the BBC is agreed, a dedicated impact assessment for the World Service which takes into account criteria such as the value of soft power and the need for built-in budgetary flexibility, so that the World Service can respond to geopolitical situations in times of jeopardy, which is part of what the charter says it is there for?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The key thing is that we reset the relationship we have with the World Service and stop using the BBC as some kind of political football. In recent years, and without the knowledge of many people, BBC Monitoring and the World Service have provided the most accurate assessment of the Russian war dead in Ukraine. They are educating women and girls in Afghanistan who have been excluded from education. They are the most reliable source of information in areas of conflict, where there is very little else available that can be trusted. We call what they are doing soft power; I think that is the wrong name for it, frankly. Other nations are investing heavily in their propaganda. We do not do that. We allow the independent, high-quality journalism of the World Service to speak for us and to support people in country. I am immensely proud of it and we need to work long term to support it.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, we have already heard today of the importance of the BBC World Service as a voice for accurate reporting in many conflict states and politically restricted states, but just this week we had a Question about the risks journalists face in order to do this reporting. Can the Minister say what support and measures the Government are offering to ensure the safety and security of journalists and staff in hostile environments?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that journalists be able to go about their work in telling the truth, often in the most difficult of circumstances. They have full consular support from us. We are a member of several multilateral organisations supporting media freedom and the rights of journalists to do their work. We will continue that. I am proud of what the UK has done over many years in this space. We will continue to do that as a new Government.