Immigration Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Lawson of Blaby

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I may also say something in response to the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham. The short answer to the very practical point that he made is for the Government to come forward with an alternative that does not tie them to taking in 3,000 children on the understanding that, if the amendment is accepted, they will be under a moral obligation to do something very similar. One argument that the Government have raised is that this may encourage other children to be put on boats and sent over. That may be but, if the Turkish agreement is to be of any use, one hopes that everyone will then go back to Turkey, certainly from Greece. However, there is a chance that that will not happen.

What really worries me—and I am obviously not the only one to be worried—is the plight of the very young children. The noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, talked about Calais. I understand that at least one child there is only nine. However, I am concerned about children under 14 and especially children under 12. They are particularly at risk not just from people traffickers but from those who would enslave them. Speaking as the co-chairman of the parliamentary group on human trafficking, I can say that there is a real problem with these children. Ten thousand-plus have gone missing. How many have gone into the hands of those who will use them for prostitution, benefit fraud, thieving and even forced labour?

We absolutely must do something to stop those children being victims. They are already victims by being in Europe if they are unaccompanied, but they are in danger of becoming slaves. As many have said much more eloquently than me, we have an obligation to look after at least some of them. As has already been said, we have a noble record of looking after children who are at great risk.

I admire the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for putting forward this amendment and I support it in principle entirely. I have the feeling that the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, does not object to the proposal; he just objects to its mandatory nature. Therefore, I put in a plea to the Government. As I have already said, if they do not like the way in which the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, is expressed, the very short answer to that is to bring forward a government amendment at Third Reading and they would have the whole House behind them.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

My Lords, if I may say so, the noble and learned Baroness made a very important point. I imagine that there is a particular concern on all sides of the House about the very young children, but the problem is that, as I understand it, the amendment would apply to anyone up to the age of 18. That goes far too wide, particularly when the de facto age of maturity—or whatever the legal position is—has come down significantly. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether the Government might consider looking at an arrangement of this kind for children up to the age of, say, 12. I believe that as currently drafted, applying to children right up to the age of 18, the amendment goes far too wide. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will consider the Government coming forward with a statesmanlike compromise.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Lord Lawson of Blaby

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords, on this occasion I am unable to support my noble and noble and learned friends and I find myself, after an intermission of something like 35 years, when we were in another place, in alliance with the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I agree entirely with everything that he had to say, which means that I shall not need to detain this House long. I realise that the House has been debating this Bill for a very long time—far too long—so I shall do my best to be brief.

I do not agree with the noble and learned Lord who has just spoken, for a number of reasons. We are perfectly entitled to ask the House of Commons to think again and look at this further. After all, it had a threshold amendment at an earlier stage in its proceedings and the majority against the threshold shrank from well over 500 to 70, so things are moving in the right direction. It may be that with a little more momentum there the right result will be obtained.

There is another point which I have to tell the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. He seemed to say that this is not a matter for this House. We are talking, certainly on the AV issue, about what my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister has said is a potential constitutional change of the first importance. If this House does not have a role as the watchdog of the constitution, it has no role at all. I cannot possibly accept the argument made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd.

I was also disappointed if not, if I may say so, slightly shocked by the poverty of the argument presented by my noble and learned friend the Minister, which boiled down to two issues. First, if I understood him aright, it seemed to me that he was concerned that the consequence of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, might be, “If you don’t know, stay at home”. I think that was what he said. He seemed to think that was terrible but if you do not know, what should you do? You cannot go and vote, “don’t know”; there is not an option on the referendum ballot, as far as I am aware. We have not exactly been told that but if there is a “don’t know” option, it is a different matter. Perhaps my noble and learned friend can tell us but I do not think there is. So, is it: “If you don’t know, toss a coin”? I listened attentively to my noble and learned friend’s speech because I was hoping to find something in it but I could not.

Secondly, the only other argument that my noble and learned friend used was that the very idea of a threshold was improper and an insult to democracy. In pretty much every other country in the world, notably the United States, when there is a major constitutional change there are special provisions. You cannot just get anything through on a majority of one, however low the turnout and whatever the conditions. Special provisions are always put in for major constitutional changes to set a higher hurdle, as there should be when the constitution is being fundamentally changed. Is the Minister saying that the United States is somehow not a proper democracy—that its arrangements are somehow improper and insulting? I will not enumerate all the other countries; my noble friend Lord Lamont did so in an excellent intervention in Committee, citing all the examples.

I make two final points. First, the Government implicitly accept that there needs to be a high turnout. That is why they decided to hold the referendum on the same day as the local elections. We know that it was not to save a few million pounds; it is because they believe that it will ensure a higher turnout. They are right and that is proper. This amendment helps the Government. It is in the same spirit as what the Government are doing by trying to ensure that there is a high turnout.

Secondly and finally, I say to those of my noble friends who are uncertain as to whether the amendment goes against the coalition agreement: the constitutional status of the coalition agreement is somewhat obscure. Nevertheless, one should always play safe. I have studied the coalition agreement very carefully and spoken to some of my right honourable friends in the other place. It is clear that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, in no way contravenes the coalition agreement. Therefore, I hope that this House will have the backbone to tell the other place that this is something of major constitutional importance; and that this House, as the watchdog of the constitution, would like the other place to look at this again.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I want to ask the Minister a very basic question, to which not only I but possibly other Peers do not know the answer: are we allowed to vote in the AV referendum?