Domestic Abuse Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Burt of Solihull

Report stage & Lords Hansard
Monday 8th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I think I must be the only person who is opposing Amendment 44. I was president of the Family Division and was previously chairman of the family committee of the predecessor of the Judicial College. I do not accept all the criticisms of the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, and other noble Lords, but I realise that I have not sat as a judge for many years. I was sad to hear the criticisms of the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, and what he has said needs to be raised with the president and the chairman of the Judicial College. I of course agree that we will need training in the new Act, but we also need consideration of how some judges have behaved. I have listened with increasing concern to what has been said about the way some people have been treated in the courts; I find that very sad to hear.

I have already said something briefly about the Judicial College on an earlier amendment and shall try not to repeat it, but it is important that it is recognised by the House that the college provides continuing specialist training. Sadly, we all know that domestic abuse has been a serious issue for many years. When I was a family judge, I tried far too many such cases. All family judges and magistrates in the family courts have mandatory, comprehensive, residential training on family issues, which of course includes domestic abuse, which is a core function of judicial family training and is taken extremely seriously. Rape, sexual abuse and domestic abuse are all part of the training. Judges without family training cannot try these cases. The judges and magistrates hear directly from victims, as well as from medical and social work experts. The training is rigorous and the trainers are themselves trained. The college is transparent in what it teaches, and what it trains can be seen.

I can assure noble Lords that the Domestic Abuse Act will be taught to judges and family magistrates and will become a focal point of judicial training. I am sure that judges and family magistrates will be given immediate training of some sort as soon as it becomes law, and the Act will become part of all residential courses. As we have been hearing this evening, judges and magistrates are not perfect and make mistakes from time to time. The Court of Appeal, where I sat for about 10 years, hears a lot of family appeals and does its best to put right what in the first instance has gone wrong.

The Bill is crucial, as we all know, and it is understandable and commendable that noble Lords want judges and magistrates to have the best possible training to implement it, but I really cannot believe it is necessary to have this in primary legislation. The president, the chairman, the director and members of the college who teach judges and magistrates know that the Domestic Abuse Act must be taught as a matter of great importance. I am sure the director of the Judicial College ought to be discussing the Act with the commissioner, and it would be helpful if that took place.

The criticisms from the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and other noble Lords need to be considered as a matter of urgency by the Judicial College, but I ask the sponsors of this amendment: what more would actually be done by putting into primary legislation that the Act must be taught to judges and magistrates when it will be taught without the introduction of this clause? The very serious criticisms that have been made this evening are also matters that, as I have already said, the president and chairman of the college need to take extremely seriously. I have no doubt that the President of the Family Division will keep a close eye on the content and the way in which the Act will be taught and will look very anxiously at what has already been said. As I have already said, in my view the amendment is not necessary. It unfairly calls into question the valuable work of the Judicial College and the conscientious teaching by the judges who carry out this training, together with many experts. The criticisms must be taken into account and looked at, but to put it into primary legislation will not take this matter any further.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 15, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, to which I have added my name. My noble friend Lord Marks has already given a very full and knowledgeable explanation of Amendment 44 and its importance. Amendment 15 is a slimmed-down version of Amendment 53, tabled in Committee, which I also supported. This amendment is also less prescriptive than the original: instead of a statutory requirement to train, it now requires only reports to the commissioner on what training is being done. I have seen the letter from the Minister to the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, and am pleased to hear about the lengths that are being gone to in order to produce the guidance, which has already been drafted, and the comprehensive framework, to be published later this year.

However, guidance frameworks are not a magic wand. They do not make departments implement them. The commissioner needs to know how far the guidance is actually being followed. She still needs the information so that she can analyse what training is being undertaken, build a picture of best, and less good, practice, and share that publicly in her annual report—not to shame, but to show.

In Committee, we discussed extensively the variability in the prevalence and effectiveness of training across different public authorities and different geographical areas. If we learned nothing else, we learned that the problem of domestic abuse is no respecter of circumstances, class, ethnicity or geographical area. We learned that the problem is pervasive, affecting an estimated 1.6 million people in 2019, and we know that it got worse during the pandemic. In her response, the Minister declared the Government to be fully in agreement with the aims of the then amendment, but she said that a statutory duty “risks undermining professional judgment” and that she did not want

“these sensitive and complex conversations to turn into some sort of tick-box exercise.”—[Official Report, 27/1/21; col. GC 1738.]

That is absolutely fair enough, but it is not the issue here. While some have had excellent professional training, others have not and do not have the confidence to even broach that “sensitive and complex” conversation to which the Minister referred. They may not even have a tick box. In Committee, we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, about reports from the campaigning group Agenda stating that, although 38% of women with mental health problems had been abused, one-third of mental health trusts did not even have a policy on domestic abuse.

If you look at Clause 15(3) of this Bill, you will see how many specific public authorities are involved with domestic abuse—in my Amendment 12, I have added a few more for good measure. Amendment 15 would enable the commissioner to form a picture of what training is, or is not, happening in all public authorities which have contact with victims. She could use this intelligence to form a picture of where opportunities are being utilised and where they are being missed. She could see where training is effective—and we have heard several examples of that—and where it is not. She could issue guidelines built on knowledge of what works in different circumstances. This modest amendment could have big consequences for the chances of victims—whoever they are and whichever public service they use—to be spotted and helped. Let us give our commissioner the tools she needs to do the job.

Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Burt of Solihull

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I entirely understand the best intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, in putting forward this amendment, but my heart sinks to hear it. It is really an effort to rewrite the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973, which we are trying very hard to get away from. I do not know whether the noble Lord understands—I hope he will forgive me for saying it like this—just what a farce the current divorce situation is. The majority of divorces are now completed on fault, and the fault has to be something that is important enough for the judge to sign off. Some judges sign off something which is very limited indeed, but if it is actually a fault of any significance, it upsets the respondent, and the respondent very often finds that he or she is being accused of things that have really not arisen during the marriage but are necessary for the current farcical situation to create a divorce. The exacerbation of the respondent inevitably has a marked effect on the children.

I have to say that Professor Liz Trinder, whom I know, is entirely independent. The report Finding Fault? is in line with lots of earlier research. In its comments on children, it is undoubtedly in line with the very strong evidence of endless consultant child and adolescent psychiatrists—and I know many of them. Over the years they have become increasingly concerned about the negative impact on children of the allegations of unreasonable behaviour that are to be found in the current legislation.

I am a patron of the Marriage Foundation, and the foundation is extremely keen that people should be reconciled. I have to say that I share that view; I must tell the House that I have been married for 61 years and I find it extremely sad when I meet members of my own family and other people I know who are divorcing. That for me is a tragedy. However, there is no shortage of people who wish to end their marriage. That is part of our English and Welsh law, and we have to go along with it.

Still, we must recognise that if this amendment were passed and only one party wanted to bring divorce proceedings, we would be back in the old situation, which is deplorable for children, and that would exacerbate the emotional trauma of the divorce process. I have to tell the House that it makes reconciliation very much less likely when allegations of behaviour are raised. Where they are not raised, it is a lot easier for people to talk to each other, but, if they are, it creates a very serious situation. I am very concerned that children should be protected from the behaviour of their parents. Children should be protected from the sort of allegations that could only seriously exacerbate the tragic situation for them when their parents separate.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull]

My Lords, these amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, would add a number of conditions or barriers that would mean that a statement of irretrievable breakdown would not be accepted unless the couple had lived apart for a specific time or there was a citation of unreasonable behaviour. The conditions look suspiciously like the existing damaging conditions that the Bill is trying to get away from—a point echoed by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in much more eloquent terms than I can manage. It sounds harsh to say this, and I have every respect for the noble Lord, but it is hard to conclude anything other than that these are wrecking amendments. This party supports the Bill and so we will not be supporting them.

Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Burt of Solihull

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 3rd March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I will just finish with the two further points I wanted to make.

On the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, with which, as noble Lords may have gathered, I do not agree, I cannot see how a court can adequately assess whether the children will be better off if the parents, one of whom wants a divorce, are still together or separated. There will be a difficult balancing act for the judge, and it will take a long time, because the family courts are seriously overburdened. How on earth will you find time to do this, and between a couple who will not be represented? As the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, there is no legal aid for couples who divorce, so the judge will have two people at odds with each other, with one or perhaps both determined to be divorced, and the children in the middle. The children ought to be informed of what is going on, but very often they are not. They need help at that time from parents who do not realise that they need help, and they particularly need information. But how on earth is the judge—or the magistrates, but in particular the judge—to say to the couple, “What is going to happen if you’re together or if you’re parted? How on earth am I to find out which way the children would want it to be?”? Particularly in cases where there is domestic abuse, the sooner that couple is parted, the better. So I am very concerned about this proposal.

Of course, we should be very careful about what we do regarding the welfare of children. However, research from the University of Exeter and the Nuffield Foundation found that where the parents cannot agree, very often the children would be better off by having them separate, and what their future ought to be can then be dealt with under the Children Acts.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull]

My Lords, I can see the sentiment behind considering the interests of the children in this matter. We will all have been moved by the testimony of the noble Baroness, Lady Meyer, about the terrible experience that she and her children underwent, but this amendment would hand the court the impossible task of deciding what is in the children’s interests without the mechanisms to do so, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, just said.

How would you implement a judgment forcing parents to stay together in the children’s interests? You cannot force a couple to stay together any more than you can order warring parents to create a loving environment. I hope that we are past the stage where parents stay together for the sake of the children—unless it is a mutual voluntary agreement—because, on the whole, that has been shown to do more harm than good. Children may fare better from having two loving parents who live in different places, often with different families of all kinds. Love and the secure knowledge that they are loved are what matters, no matter who makes up their family. Research has shown that parents are usually the best judge of what is in their children’s interests. Where this is not feasible, the family courts are there to help.

I am afraid that we will not support the amendment from these Benches.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Butler-Sloss and Baroness Burt of Solihull

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Burt of Solihull]

I support these two amendments. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, pointed out, after exit day, European protection orders, plus other measures which give victims of violence equivalent protections across the EU, will be lost to UK citizens. But violence against women and girls has not featured in any Brexit-related papers. Can the Minister please tell us what provisions are being made to continue co-operation and data sharing on known and suspected perpetrators of human trafficking, FGM and sexual exploitation of children, and the whole host of benefits which cross-EU co-operation has brought us until now?

As has been said, Amendment 224 talks about the funding we have received hitherto and the value of the support we have enjoyed by virtue of being a member of the EU. If the Government are serious about ensuring that we continue to give vulnerable women and children the protections they have enjoyed so far, they know that this has to be properly funded. According to the Fawcett Society, many millions of pounds’ worth of funding—for research and service delivery support—are potentially at stake, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, said. Will the Minister commit to sustaining this funding post Brexit?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy. I am concerned about a number of matters, particularly the European protection order and the European arrest warrant, both of which are important weapons in relation to domestic violence.

I work with IKWRO, which the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, referred to: the Iranian-Kurdish organisation that does a great deal of good. It has really substantial funding from the EU and requires continued funding for the very valuable work it does in this country. I also ask the Minister to bear in mind that domestic violence includes forced marriage. Many women in forced marriage situations also suffer domestic violence. I declare that I am chairman of the National Commission on Forced Marriage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Burt of Solihull]

My Lords, I support the amendment. Anyone who has been an MP in the other place will know from their caseload that child maintenance is a huge, complex and emotive issue. When I was in the other place I learned about this and the challenges for parents with care. Chasing recalcitrant dads, or mums, across national borders without co-operative and reciprocal—that word again—arrangements would be nigh on impossible. Will the Minister commit to ensuring that parents with care are not left high and dry post Brexit, and that we have arrangements in place before we actually leave?

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, from bitter experience as a family judge, I am aware how difficult it is for the mother of children—and occasionally the father; it is not always one-way—to get an effective maintenance order. I am not talking about Brexit at all, but one of the current benefits of the EU is the ability to follow an order made in an English court in another EU country, and the equal ability of the other 26 countries to follow an order into an English court. This is the absolute ultimate of good reciprocity. That is at enormous risk as we leave the EU. It is one issue that the Government must address alongside the reciprocity on divorce and other issues that we discussed earlier, and see that the good of this very good interchange between the 27 countries of the EU is not lost post Brexit.