Crime and Policing Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Monday 2nd February 2026 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Lincoln]

My Lords, I am one of those old men. I am also a single man, so I have no children of my own, but I am regularly in contact with very young families through baptism. Only last Thursday, I was in hospital in an acute cardiac unit for babies, anointing a two week-old baby who had just had open-heart surgery. So I know quite a lot about babies through a very long ministry. I also offer my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for a television series that he oversaw about seeing a pregnancy from conception to delivery some years ago. That series reinforced my conviction about the sanctity of life.

The fact that we are here today in this Chamber means that we must recognise that we are on precious ground. Of course we are here to support women who have been abused and coerced. I think that the amendment proposing that we should require the Attorney-General to intervene would be rather too late if there had been a year-long investigation of a woman in between. I have been investigating this with the Lincolnshire constabulary: we need to look at how police procedure can be changed and invested in, enabling us to move away from treating these women as criminals to treating them as witnesses and victims, so that the police activity is primarily engaged in going after coercers and bad actors. I therefore agree with the noble Baroness in how that should proceed.

At the same time, noble Lords will not be surprised to hear me say that I entirely endorse the Church of England’s principle position in opposing the abortion of late-term foetuses who are viable, unless otherwise affected by the Abortion Act. I would like to see a different way of interpreting the law, which is differently enforced, which does not decriminalise or take away investigation, precisely for the protection of women and the preservation of unborn life.

To do that, we need to look urgently at how we allow investigations to take place and how we seek to support a woman, often a woman going through acute distress and bereavement. I quite understand the point about unexplained deaths, and we need to make sure that women are protected. But I signed a letter with 200 other clergy, back when Clause 191 first came out, expressing our dismay at the way in which this decriminalisation could so easily lead inadvertently, even if it is only a small number of babies, to the termination of the lives of viable children into the future. That, I am afraid, I could never support.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I am just wondering if the Committee would allow me to speak at my extreme age. I have put my name to the amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, and I do not propose to repeat anything he has said. But there are two aspects I will speak about, particularly those raised by the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Pannick.

First, in what they are both saying, we are looking at women who are not guilty of any offence. We are being asked to pass a law to protect offenders for the sake of people who are not offenders. Speaking as a former lawyer, I find that an extraordinary proposal. I absolutely understand what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is saying, about the difficulty of balancing. But he is talking about the innocent. We are being asked to pass a law that would actually protect the guilty for the sake of the innocent. It is the first time anyone has pointed this out, and I find it rather extraordinary. We are being asked to look at women who have suffered a stillbirth or an abortion not at their request but because it has happened at a very late stage, who are now being investigated by the police. I gather the whole thing has gathered momentum after pills were being sent by post. Prior to that, the police did not investigate a lot of cases, but because of the pills being sent by post, the police are now investigating to a greater extent.

Particularly in relation to those who are suffering domestic abuse—this relates to the amendment the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, and I have put forward—it looks to me as though we are being asked to change the law because the police are taking a year to investigate, treating women extremely badly in the process. But surely, we should be looking at the guidance to the police. I am very relieved to hear the right reverend Prelate is going to get Lincolnshire Police to have a look at this. We should find out why the police are not looking at potential abusers or investigating the partner as well as the woman. We are being told again and again that the partners are not being investigated but the woman is being investigated. It is taking a year or longer—in some appalling cases, six years. But that is the failure of the police. We know they are overstretched, but it is an appalling failure, particularly if they do not investigate.

[Baroness Bousted (Lab)]

Would the noble and learned Baroness, with her outstanding history in the law, recognise that women and men are not treated equally in the criminal justice system, nor in police investigations; that it is the case that women, when they are convicted of an offence, are often sent to prison for offences for which men are not sent to prison; that women are sent to prison for longer than men for the same offences; that there are many women in prison for things that men would not be put in prison for; and that exactly the same is the case in investigations? We have to ask the question: why did it take six years, why are the police not—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

Order—that was an intervention.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I have not quite finished.

I understand exactly what the noble Baroness is saying. I was not a criminal judge; I do not think I ever sent a woman to prison, so I am not qualified to speak on those issues. All I am really asking the Committee to reflect on is that we are principally being asked to change the law to support those who are not guilty of offences, and because the police are not behaving as they should.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I have two questions for the noble and learned Baroness. Why does the noble and learned Baroness think 50 countries have found this not to be a problem? Abortion is decriminalised in virtually every country that has had abortion legislation since the 1967 Act. So, I am wondering why the noble and learned Baroness thinks that is a problem. My second question is: why does the noble and learned Baroness think that adding further complications, which the amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, would, would make this any better?

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

You cannot have two interventions.

I do not know the answer to the first question. I have not looked at what goes on in other jurisdictions; I do not know how well it works or whether it works. Secondly, it seems to me that there should be a lot of changes to the way this is all dealt with. If the police investigated the man as well as the woman, one would hope they would not pursue their investigations.

[Lord Bailey of Paddington (Con)]

My Lords, I am speaking to my amendment—

Exercise Pegasus 2025

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Thursday 15th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right. However, it is about not just this House and the other place but the four devolved Assemblies, making sure that all nations and regions have proper democratic oversight and engagement in any process. That is why Pegasus included not only ministerial leads, which it did, and the relevant government departments and arm’s-length bodies, but regional and national Governments, and the LRFs, to make sure that we knew who was responsible for what and at what time, and, candidly, where there are holes that we need to fill. We need to learn from previous experiences, whether that is the pandemic or the recent storms, and we need to make sure that we are prepared for what may face us. That is why I urge all noble Lords to read the National Risk Register matrix to see where the threats may come from.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Can the Minister say what relationship, if any, there is with the inquiry chaired by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hallett?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

We are very grateful to the noble and learned Baroness and her inquiry into Covid-19. Exercise Pegasus came out of one of the recommendations in module 1 of the inquiry, so we are reflecting on its recommendations as they are made. We have guaranteed that there will be one major tier 1 exercise per year and to publish their findings every year, which is an important part of it and one of the key recommendations that has already come from the noble and learned Baroness’s review. We look forward to her recommendations going forward.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting
Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, refers to this as an “exceptional use” of Henry VIII powers. I wish I could be comforted to that extent, but it seems to me that the use of Henry VIII powers is an endemic vice in government, and I wonder why Ministers and officials never learn. The Henry VIII powers taken in relation to Clause 21 are very extensive indeed. I certainly accept what the Minister says, that it is not their intention to amend the devolution settlement, which ought to be amended by primary legislation. It is, none the less, offensive in principle to take such powers: it does not need to be done. The Government seem to think it is expedient, but it is actually very bad for trust between Parliament and the Executive, and, I think, bad for trust between politics and the people.

The Minister and I had a brief exchange in Committee on this, and on the particular question of whether the powers that the Government propose to take to themselves to alter primary legislation, or even abolish primary legislation by statutory instrument, would be subject to the affirmative or the negative procedure. He said his advice from his officials was that they would be subject to the affirmative procedure, and I agree that that is indeed the case where Clause 21 is concerned, but when we come to Clause 41, which is the most all-embracing, there is a socking great Henry VIII power. It is an almost megalomaniac provision and there is no such assurance available. As I understand the legislation, and as the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, more significantly, understands the legislation, the exercise of those powers under Clause 41 would be by the negative procedure. That is even more offensive, and it would be very helpful if the Minister would comment.

I hope the Minister will accept that, as a matter of general principle, the use of Henry VIII powers is objectionable; that if they are to be taken, they need to be defended in very clear and specific terms, as they have not so far been in the consideration of this legislation; and that the offence is compounded where the proposal is that the exercise of those powers should not be subject to the affirmative procedure.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has just said. Clause 21 says:

“Regulations under subsection (1) may make any provision that could be made by an Act of Parliament (including modifying this Act).”


That is about as broad as the power could possibly go. It seems to me to be entirely unacceptable that there should be absolutely no curb of any sort upon the powers of any Government, and I consider that it is something that this House ought to be very worried about.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, I am a signatory to Amendment 4 and my willingness to support it is partly based on a constant desire to police the boundary that ought to exist in the use of regulatory powers, so that they do not permit the imposing of taxation or fees, the making of retrospective provision, the creation of criminal offences or the establishment of public authorities, some of which could arise as a result of what is in the protocol. The Minister may well want to explain to what extent he thinks the protocol itself limits the powers that can be used under this section.

This is an area we have often been reminded of by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who until his recent departure was such a valued member of the Constitution Committee. If we had not policed the boundary, he would have been urging us on to do so. Indeed, he may have something to say on this amendment. It is an issue we keep having to come back to, because there are those within government who seem to think they can keep putting these kinds of powers into Bills, and we know how dangerous they are.

Domestic Violence: Victims

Baroness Butler-Sloss Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. Far from being the only response to domestic abuse in the shape of refuges, there are many other ways of tackling the issue of domestic abuse, and it is what is appropriate in a particular situation. We look at sanctuary schemes, for example, and outreach support for people who are still at home. There are diverse responses according to the different situations that we face.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I hope that the Minister is aware that refuges are needed for men as well as women. A minority of men are at risk, and it is extremely difficult for them to find anywhere to go if they have to leave home. There is also a need for victims of forced marriage, many of whom are underage. They also are not really looked after at the moment.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Baroness for that point. She is right, of course; a significant minority of men are subjected to domestic violence and organisations support them, too. It is important that that message gets across—and that is something I shall mention to Katie Ghose this afternoon. The noble and learned Baroness also mentioned forced marriages. There are particular issues in the BME community and, again, we try to confront that. We have support from particular organisations that deal with BME domestic abuse: for example, Imkaan, and on my recent Liverpool visit I met Tracey Gore of the Steve Biko domestic abuse service—so we are over that as well.