Asylum Seekers: Rwanda

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not have the numbers to hand, because the Question that I am answering is of a very different nature. I will have to come back to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, I am surprised to hear that there is no budget for this policy, but I am sure that the Minister agrees with the two Ministers who answered Questions this morning about the importance of people being in work. Does he agree with me that many people who come to this country would make a valuable contribution if only they were allowed to work?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I agree in certain circumstances, but we are talking about failed asylum seekers. These people will be offered the opportunity to work, but in Rwanda.

Support for Migrant Victims

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

In response to the noble Baroness’s question, it is important to note that we are far from alone in this. As noble Lords will be aware, the majority of countries that have ratified the Istanbul convention have reservations on one or more of the 81 clauses. In the case of Article 59, I think there are 12 other countries that still have reservations. We have made it very clear that our compliance position on Article 59 is under review, pending the support for migrant victims scheme evaluation. Our reservation is without prejudice to the policy conclusions that we reach in the light of this evaluation. I cannot really go further than that at the moment, but I will come back to the noble Baroness and the rest of the House as soon as I possibly can.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that in the current hostile environment towards migration, women whose immigration status depends on their husband are under even greater pressure to remain in possibly violent relationships?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid I do not accept the hostile environment remark. What I should say with regard to the situation the noble Baroness describes, which I think comes down to data sharing and the firewall situation that often gets raised here, is that both the police and immigration enforcement share a commitment to safeguard individuals they encounter. We acknowledge that data sharing between the police and the Home Office can be a contributing factor that can influence the decisions of migrant victims not to report a crime and that perpetrators can sometimes use the victim’s immigration status to exert fear or control, but that will inform the migrant victims protocol which is due to be published at the end of this year.

Illegal Migration Bill

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Weir of Ballyholme (DUP)]

My Lords, as the proposer of Amendment 96, I have no problems with any of the other amendments in this group. I do not want to repeat the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, but will deal specifically, albeit briefly, with Amendment 96.

This amendment looks at the level of support that human trafficking victims receive. As we discussed earlier, it is important that we, as a nation, approach that in a humane and compassionate manner. This amendment deals specifically with the position in Northern Ireland and with setting it at a higher bar than the Government are proposing, for a number of reasons.

First, the amendment reflects the devolutionary settlement for Northern Ireland. While migration and immigration are national issues, modern slavery and human trafficking specifically have been dealt with as a devolved matter and on a devolved basis. It is not something on which a uniform approach has been taken across the United Kingdom, and levels of support for victims in Northern Ireland is not something that has been dealt with in the abstract.

There are many occasions when in Northern Ireland we will seek exactly the same provisions as elsewhere or simply replicate or pay lip service to what is provided elsewhere by repeating it. This has been drilled down on two very detailed occasions in Northern Ireland. As I indicated earlier, we were the first part of the United Kingdom to have specific legislation on human trafficking through the human trafficking Act, which predated the Modern Slavery Act. There was a considerable amount of attention given to it then. In the sometimes febrile, cauldron-like atmosphere of Northern Ireland, it can be difficult to get consensus, but that was something on which there was broad consensus across the Assembly Chamber.

More specifically, in 2022, a major piece of legislation was brought by the Department of Justice. The justice Act dealt with two specific areas—in essence, a range of sexual offences and human trafficking. It was something that the Assembly, both legislatively and in the committee, looked at in considerable detail. I was a member of the Justice Committee when that was going through, and we took availability of the opportunity to get in a wide range of experts to give direct advice on what was needed specifically for Northern Ireland.

What has been put in place and will be enacted in Northern Ireland without this legislation has been designed specifically for Northern Ireland and its particular circumstances. It is one of those areas into which has gone a forensic level of detail. Unfortunately, the Bill would take us in a different direction and leave us with less protection and fewer resources for victims of human trafficking.

Secondly, there is currently some dispute between the Government and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission about the levels of obligation on this topic. We are in no doubt that across the board with this legislation, if it goes through in whatever form, it is likely to be challenged in the courts and to be the subject of litigation. Consequently, if we are to be stuck with it, the position where we can have the greatest level of clarity, certainty and agreement is preferable. If we can resolve that issue by way of the adoption of an amendment such as Amendment 96, it would remove the potential level of dispute. Faced with a choice between the Government’s position and that of the human rights commission, the human rights commission’s position would give greater protection and support for victims of human trafficking. If left with a choice as to what direction we go in, to provide that greater protection is the best possible solution.

Thirdly and finally, the amendment deals with the specific circumstances of Northern Ireland. Clearly, the issue of small boats has featured in a lot of the discussions around the Bill. Northern Ireland, I suppose, geographically in the United Kingdom is as far away from the shores of Kent as one can possibly get. On that basis, where we have small boats coming in, they tend to bring in fish rather than migrants. While the reality is that, as I am sure others have indicated, in many ways there is a common belief across this Chamber and another place that we need to seriously tackle the issue of small boats and clamp down on those exploiting people with that form of migration, with regards to human trafficking, small boats, as has been indicated, are largely a red herring when it comes to the issue of modern slavery. That is not the way that, largely speaking, human traffickers are bringing people to the United Kingdom, and certainly that is the case for Northern Ireland.

However, there is a concern about Northern Ireland’s unique geographical position, which is why we need a greater level of protection. The Prime Minister and others have highlighted the unique advantage of Northern Ireland in many ways, in that we have a border with the European Union and access therefore, through the common travel area, to the European Union, particularly the Republic of Ireland. We are also part of the United Kingdom, which means we have full access to the rest of the United Kingdom. There is a danger that human traffickers will see Northern Ireland as a potential best of both worlds, which will be to the detriment of Northern Ireland and particularly of those who are going to be transported by human traffickers. That is a danger that we need to see off, and the fact that there has been a considerable increase in the number of victims of human trafficking referred to the NRM from Northern Ireland shows that this is something that human traffickers are alive to.

We all hope to reach a day in this society when the number of victims of human trafficking, in Northern Ireland or elsewhere, is set at zero, but we are living, unfortunately, in a world where this is an increasing crime rather than one that is reducing. The level of resources and support that need to be given to victims potentially coming to Northern Ireland has to act as a support for the victim but has also to act as a virtuous circle, because the greater the level of support and resilience that we can give to those victims, the better chance we have of catching the perpetrators and preventing this in the long run. Therefore, I urge the Committee to support the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Morrow.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 94 and the intention of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol to oppose Clause 23 standing part. I shall concentrate on the Bill’s implications for the Scottish Parliament, as it will bring some of the most offensive parts of this legislation relating to victims into Scotland.

Devolution Guidance Note 10 states that a Bill requires the consent of the Scottish Parliament if it

“contains provisions applying to Scotland and which are for devolved purposes, or which alter the legislative competence of the Parliament or the executive competence of the Scottish Ministers”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard, this group of amendments relates to the provision of support to potential victims of modern slavery. We have, of course, recently had an extensive debate about the application of the public order disqualification to those who meet the conditions in Clause 2 of the Bill. I will not go over the same ground again, save to say that it is a necessary consequence of the provisions in Clause 4 that the duty on the Home Secretary to make arrangements for removal of persons who meet Clause 2 conditions should apply regardless of whether the person claims to be a victim of modern slavery.

It follows that, for the provisions of this Bill to work as intended, individuals who arrive illegally in the UK and receive a positive reasonable grounds decision must be disqualified from the protections of the national referral mechanism. Clause 22 gives effect to this principle for England and Wales by disapplying the duties on the Secretary of State, under Section 50A of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, to provide necessary assistance and support to potential victims during the recovery period. Clauses 23 and 24 have the same effect in relation to corresponding legislation in Scotland and Northern Ireland respectively. Clause 27 then makes the necessary consequential changes to the relevant legislation that applies in each part of the United Kingdom.

If an individual arrives in the UK illegally and a first responder suspects that they may be a victim of modern slavery, they will still refer that individual into the NRM and that person will receive a reasonable grounds decision. That process will not change under the Bill. However, as I set out before in relation to Clause 21, Article 13 of ECAT envisages that the obligation on signatory states to provide assistance and support to potential victims may be withheld on grounds of public order. This is precisely what Clauses 22 to 24 give effect to as a result of the public order threat arising from the current scale of illegal entry into the United Kingdom by people undertaking dangerous and unnecessary channel crossings in small boats. That means that they will not benefit from the protections otherwise afforded to potential victims of modern slavery, subject to the exception set out in Clause 21, which we have debated at some length.

It is right that the Government take meaningful steps to ensure that these illegal and dangerous channel crossings are stopped and that any incentives to enter the UK by such means are closed off. That is what these clauses seek to do. Clauses 22 to 24 operate subject to the same exception as Clause 21 in relation to those potential victims who are co-operating with a public authority in connection with an investigation or criminal proceedings in relation to their alleged exploitation, and it is necessary for them to remain in the UK to provide such co-operation.

The effect of Amendments 93, 94, 95 and 96 is no different in practice from proposition by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to strike out these clauses as a whole. The amendments effectively gut Clauses 22 to 24, such that the existing requirements relating to the provision of support would continue to apply. It will therefore come as no surprise to noble Lords that I cannot commend these amendments to the Committee.

In response to the devolution points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Weir and Lord Morrow, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan, I remind the Committee that immigration and nationality are reserved matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and therefore matters for the UK Government. It is also our view that the modern slavery clauses also deal specifically with the reserved matter of immigration, and they are for a reserved purpose. As for the Bill as a whole, they would not therefore engage the legislative consent process.

I assure the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham that anyone who has arrived illegally in the UK on or after 7 March and before commencement would in this period receive support as now.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that support for people who have been trafficked and involved in modern slavery is a devolved issue?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

No, I am afraid that is not the view of the Government. These provisions are in a measure that relates to a reserved issue.

Violence against Women and Domestic Violence

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

Can the Minister understand why some women in this position who are concerned about their immigration status are reluctant to involve the police force, not just because of that status but because of their colour and gender?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, the Government absolutely understand that. I reiterate the point that they are regarded as victims first and foremost. Essentially, the question is: why is there a firewall between police and immigration enforcement? Having considered the evidence from experts in the sector and police representatives, we did not consider that establishing a complete or time-limited data-sharing firewall between the police and the Home Office would meet the joint aims of encouraging victims of crime with insecure status to report crime while maintaining an effective immigration control.

Information Commissioner’s Office Report

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I totally agree with my noble friend and refer her to the comments I made earlier. Nevertheless, it is also important in that whole balancing act that people do not feel they have to hand over their mobile phones or that their prosecution will not go forward if they do not.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, other victims of crime are not expected to hand over such sensitive information as in the case of rape; that is what is unfair. Actually, the victim in such cases can be asked to divulge far more information than the person accused. I hope the Minister can confirm that women should not expect to have personal information about the impact that attack has had on them shared with the defendant—the person who has raped them.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I hope the noble Baroness will agree that I have made that point throughout my answers. It is all about the balance between justice being served and evidence being brought forward but victims, in particular, not feeling coerced into having to do it.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie, on her excellent speech seconding the Motion for a humble Address, which included many references to Scotland and reminded us that she likes to highlight Scotland at every opportunity. This House can be an odd place for Scottish Peers, as previously much of the legislation that had an impact in Scotland was dealt with in the Scottish Parliament, while most of the legislation scrutinised in this Chamber was applicable to England. In the past two years this has changed. Whether you describe it as a power grab or not, we have certainly seen incursions into devolved areas of competence, and I think we will see even more in the programme outlined in the Queen’s Speech.

Like others, I hoped that in this Queen’s Speech we would hear about steps to bring our constitution into line with 20-plus years of devolution; instead, we have a stand-alone Bill to abolish the Human Rights Act and replace it with a so-called Bill of Rights. Because the business of devolution has not yet been completed, the role of the devolved parliaments is not acknowledged in making fundamental changes to our constitution, such as introducing a Bill of Rights. No other nation with devolved Administrations has such a centralised system as the UK. Does the Minister recognise that drafting a Bill of Rights should be done jointly with the devolved Administrations and, of course, consulting much more widely in civic society?

The Human Rights Act was adopted just at the point when devolution was being put in place and is central to the relationships between the different parts of the UK. Will the Government take notice of the concerns expressed by all three human rights commissioners about scrapping the Act? The Joint Committee on Human Rights report on 13 April 2022 stated that:

“The HRA plays a unique role in the constitutional arrangements of the devolved nations. The role played by the ECHR and the HRA has helped embed a human rights culture in the devolved nations and plays a particularly important role in the peace settlement in Northern Ireland.”


Part of the relationship between Westminster and the devolved Administrations was based on the assurance that the ECHR would be integrated into the devolved settlements. The Good Friday agreement binds the UK internationally to the multi-party deal, which was endorsed in joint referenda on both sides of the Irish border. This agreement was lodged as a treaty with the United Nations. The section of the agreement guaranteeing the rights of minorities states that the British Government commit to

“complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights … with direct access to the courts, and remedies for breach of the Convention”.

Can the Minister assure us that this will remain the case?

Northern Ireland’s ambiguous situation in terms of the protocol will be further undermined by this Bill. This is not just a discussion about the niceties of international treaties; we must remember the daily experience of violence that existed before the Good Friday agreement. The HRA is also woven directly into the fabric of Scotland’s constitutional settlement. The Scottish Government believe that changes to the existing statute will have very real implications for devolved institutions; therefore, no changes affecting Scotland should be made without the explicit consent of the Scottish Parliament.

Before the Queen’s Speech, the Welsh Government appealed to the UK Government to abandon these proposals and recommit to the retention of the existing HRA. They stated that, as many of the Bill’s provisions will impact on the operation of devolved responsibilities, they will bring forward a legislative consent Motion. I have argued on a number of occasions that this Government have no understanding of devolution, and probably very little support for it. However, they are in real danger of making people from the devolved nations so alienated that separation would seem the most obvious response. Can the Minister give any reassurance that they will take the legislative consent process more seriously on this occasion than they have recently?

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Lords Hansard - part two & Committee stage
Wednesday 3rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

Amendment 132B would help bring the commissioning and procurement of weapons, surveillance equipment and investigatory technology under the supervision of the Government—whom, of course, we all trust. It is important to ensure that these technologies are commissioned coherently, with proper political oversight and judgment. Ultimately, these are questions about the balance of power between the state and the population. I would like to see even greater oversight—perhaps even a Lords Select Committee should be set up to consider these issues and make recommendations. I hope that the Government will listen.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 132B in the names of my noble friends Lady Chakrabarti and Lord Hain. Most of us were blissfully unaware that there was something called the National Police Air Service. We might have thought of it monitoring traffic problems and advising on detours, or perhaps tracking a getaway car through the streets. We probably thought that our local police service was undertaking this. Certainly, we would have expected such a service to have been accountable.

We were somewhat surprised to find that responsibility for commissioning this service in England and Wales is held in West Yorkshire and is becoming part of the remit of the Mayor of West Yorkshire. It was unnerving to read in the Guardian that there is to be a massive development in the role of the National Police Air Service without reference to Parliament, especially as it is considering the use of the technologies which have been described and which take us into worrying areas of policing that involve the use of drones, possibly fitted with facial recognition technology, and greatly increase the degree of public surveillance. Can the Minister say how much, if any, of the information captured will be accessible to the private company involved in its provision?

Amendment 132B aims to ensure that the commissioning of such equipment should be a matter for Parliament so as to ensure proper accountability and scrutiny. If there is one thing we should have learned from recent concerns about policing, it is that all aspects of policing should be accountable and open to public scrutiny. The antithesis of accountability is having an election every few years for a police and crime commissioner who is usually elected on the basis of a low turnout with little local understanding of that person’s role.

Can the Minister reassure the Committee about another aspect of accountability? When contracts are awarded for aspects of policing, they should be transparent and not clouded by being classified as commercially sensitive and therefore less open to public scrutiny. As other noble Lords have said, I hope that the Minister will take account of this amendment and the nature of the concerns it expresses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I have not engaged with the committee. The committee could invite me, but I think it spoke to Home Secretary in the past few days. Live facial recognition is the comparison of images against a watchlist, whereas heli-tele seems to be—from what the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was describing—aerial CCTV. The two are quite different and are governed under different laws. The LFR is a comparison against a watchlist, and that is why it is different.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

I wonder whether the Minister will mind me intervening. My concern was not that the police and crime commissioners were not elected, but that the one that serves West Yorkshire is elected only by West Yorkshire, yet it is commissioning work on behalf of other areas in England and Wales that properly should be done here in Parliament.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 14th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, in considering the Bill I shall concentrate on Part 3, although the other sections also give great cause for concern. Particular attention needs to be given to the points made by the General Medical Council relating to Part 2 and the distressing plans to criminalise a legitimate lifestyle in Part 4. These were described particularly movingly by my noble friends Lady Whitaker and Lady Chakrabarti.

The whole Bill appears to be based on the view that the world is full of dangerous people who need to be heavily policed and constrained. Personally, I think that is an unhealthy starting point for making legislation. Those who apparently engender such fear are people who do not have the ear of Ministers. They cannot invite senior Cabinet members to lunch to press their concerns; their route is protest.

Part 3 of the Bill in its present form would pose an undue threat of criminalising people seeking to have their voices heard by people in power. The Home Secretary has tried to pass a share of the blame for these draconian restrictions on to the Police Federation, saying that it had requested greater powers to police public gatherings, but it appears there is no record of the Police Federation being consulted on this. If not the police, who is demanding the curtailment of many long-held rights with threats of substantial fines or lengthy jail sentences? One suspects this is an exercise in political power. As the Government have a majority, they will exercise it to stamp their mark on society. Bad laws lead to a lack of respect for law. Placing conditions on people organising protests that cannot be measured or assessed in advance must be intended to discourage planners and participants.

Clause 55 creates a new basis for police intervention: that of noisiness. If noise could cause people

“to suffer serious unease, alarm or distress”

the police may act to prevent it. Is there a certain level of noise that would result in that response or is it arbitrary? Making your voice heard can be a noisy business. With no direct access to the national media, how else can people be heard? The Minister says that the Bill seeks to do more to protect our communities when it actually restricts communities’ abilities to protect themselves, which often involves protest.

Clause 61 appears to be a case of legislating for dealing with the activities of one person. This is never a good idea and is in danger of making the law look petty. What can possibly be meant by inciting somebody to engage in a one-person protest? Could blowing your car horn in support or stopping to give a word of encouragement become criminalised?

The Bill is in serious need of amendment. We must do that as a duty to those who struggle to have their voice heard.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 11th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I echo the grave concerns of many Peers. I also endorse what has been said about the good faith of my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti and her commitment to civil liberties. That has been the imprimatur—the standard she has been the bearer of in her professional life.

We should recognise the importance of discussing the rule of law and how we have to be the guardians of it even when we recognise the need for the state to make use of agents. I hope the House will note the serious risks of introducing law that grants immunity to informants, agents and spies. My great regret is that the Bill lumps together the needs of different kinds of agency. The requirements of, for example, the security services are distinctly different from some of the other agencies they have been lumped together with in the Bill. Perhaps our attitudes to those different needs should be distinctly different too.

Let me assure noble Lords that from my work in the courts over the years involving national security, I accept the vital need for the police and security services to use covert operatives in their investigations, particularly into serious crime. I accept that there are times when, to maintain their cover, agents or informants have to be involved in criminal activity. The status quo, which I would like to see preserved, has security service guidelines that provide an appropriate balance between the necessity of certain law enforcement operations and the public’s legitimate expectation that informants and agents be deterred from acting with abandon and—if they go beyond what has been agreed and commit criminal offences—to be held accountable for their actions.

My noble friend Lady Chakrabarti mentioned that a level of uncertainty is quite curative; it is important for someone to be made to think, and not to feel they have the impunity of immunity. These issues are of serious importance to us, because they are about maintaining the moral equilibrium of ensuring that the law applies equally to all. That is what the rule of law is about. Let me make it clear to noble Lords: this is not some mild thing. The Bill will change the legal landscape that says we are all accountable to the law and nobody is above it. Having immunity for certain people means there is a greater sense of the weight of what people are involved in.

I have seen, in all my years of practising in the courts, that there are times when these matters go before the prosecuting authorities and no prosecution of informants or agents is forthcoming because it is not in the public interest to proceed. That is the better way of dealing with this. It is the better way of maintaining that commitment to the social contract we made that we are all answerable to law, save in exceptional circumstances, when their controllers—those who run agents in the field or deal with informants—step forward to give reasons why a person should not be prosecuted, explaining the circumstances in which crimes were committed. It is the granting of immunity that changes, in a fundamental way, relationships and the rule of law. That is why I am concerned and will support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti.

I am president of the JUSTICE Council—its advisory council—and it is not an organisation that goes into these things lightly. Huge care and consideration are given to the positions JUSTICE takes on matters of law and legislation going through these Houses. JUSTICE recommends that this House should be very cautious before throwing away the perfectly reasonable guidelines and provisions that currently exist and giving operatives certainty of never being prosecuted for what they do, when they may say, “I demand to be told that I will never be prosecuted for what I am doing”.

I am very concerned about this Bill. I will be supporting my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti. I regret that I cannot take the position of my party in abstaining—this is too important to me. I am a lawyer and have spent my life in the law. I head an institute of human rights; I created, at Oxford, an institute of human rights; I believe in the rule of law. We are a nation that stands for the rule of law in the world and, by God, having watched what happened in the United States recently, the need for a nation to stand for the rule of law is vital.

I regret that we are going down this road. I do not believe that this legislation is necessary in the way others seem to think it is; we could have refined this in a better way. I will be voting with my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti, and I will be adding additional amendments later if these do not succeed, as I suspect is likely.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a privilege, if not somewhat intimidating, to follow my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. But it does give me the confidence to believe that some of the points I am making are probably accurate and worthy of consideration.

We have been told that the purpose of the Bill is to bring the operation of CHIS out of the shadows and put existing practice on a clear and consistent statutory footing. This Bill, however, goes much further than existing practice by allowing prior immunity. The current regulation on “Immunity from Prosecution” in Section 71 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 states that

“immunity notices can only be granted in respect of offences which have already been committed.”

There are many reasons why immunity should only be applicable to offences already committed, and we have not been given convincing reasons why this should change. There are occasions when it is in the public interest not to prosecute someone for a crime they have committed, but that does not change that there was a crime and, almost certainly, a victim. The Bill changes that: by giving prior immunity, it makes what in other circumstances would be a crime no longer a crime. The effect of issuing a CCA will commit the action of an undercover operative to

“be lawful for all purposes.”

There are some principles in law that even a lay person like me can understand. One of them is the rule of law, which the Oxford English Dictionary defines as

“the principle whereby all members of a society (including those in government) are considered equally subject to publicly disclosed legal codes and processes.”

If this Bill becomes law in its current state, it will undermine that basic principle.

As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, pointed out, some of the amendments in this group attempt damage limitation by mitigating the effect of granting prior immunity. They should be supported, but the key amendments are Amendments 1 and 2 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Chakrabarti, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who have all spoken persuasively on them.

I think we can predict that, if the Bill goes ahead in its current state, there will be public inquiries in the years to come into the behaviour that it will have permitted, and they will reveal even more horrific stories than those being exposed in the current Undercover Policing Inquiry.

No one is denying that undercover activities are necessary, and that they will sometimes involve using criminals, but that makes it even more important that their actions are constrained rather than given carte blanche. Those of us who are concerned about this are not being awkward or indulging in conspiracy theories; our concerns are based on the actual experience of undercover activities that have resulted, at the most extreme, in murder and rape and, quite commonly, in the destruction of innocent people’s lives. I asked the Minister at Second Reading and again in Committee—and I ask it again today—whether she can give an example of when an undercover operative has been prosecuted after receiving legitimate authorisation.

If we were to read in the daily papers that the director of Amnesty International was hugely worried about a Government introducing deeply dangerous legislation that gave disturbing powers to their secret service, I am sure we would all be concerned and wonder which totalitarian regime she was talking about. However, that is what she said about this legislation going through our own Parliament. These two simple amendments would stop that happening and I will support them in a Division.

[Lord Hendy (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan, in supporting Amendments 1 and 2, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, a woman of unimpeachable integrity, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, have pointed out. I do not overlook the other signatories to the amendments: the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who put a case which appears irrefutable, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Jones, who made powerful speeches, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti. My position is that, unless the amendments are passed or accepted by the Government, I shall have no alternative but to vote against the Bill. This is not a matter of petty factionalism, as was disgracefully suggested in a newspaper today; it is a matter of conscience.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, I cannot support a Bill which gives the state the power to grant immunity for crimes to be committed in the future by agents on its behalf. Such immunity is contrary to the rule of law. The rule of law prescribes that all are bound equally to observe it, not least the criminal law. Giving the state the power to exempt its agents prospectively from criminal law is the antithesis of this fundamental principle.

I accept, of course, that every state necessarily deploys undercover agents to protect itself and, indeed, the rule of law. I accept that, in the course of their work, it may be necessary to break the law, including criminal law, but I cannot accept that state agents should be given prospective immunity to do so, no matter how senior or judicial is the person who authorises that criminal conduct.

The evil here is the prospective immunity to be granted, based only on an assessment of possible future situations. A decision to prosecute or not should be made only retrospectively, when the facts and circumstances of the criminal conduct are known. This is the status quo and, as far as is known, it has worked perfectly satisfactorily, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, demonstrated.

Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Baroness Bryan of Partick Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 3rd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, whose name appears next on the list, has withdrawn, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, unfortunately did not join the debate remotely at the start. I therefore call the noble Baroness, Lady Bryan of Partick.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a real pleasure to take part in this debate. I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Dubs will not be joining us, but I am speaking before my noble friend Lord Judd—they have both spent many decades of their lives fighting for civil liberties. They will remember, I am sure, Maria Fyfe, who entered Parliament in 1987 and did so much over the years to champion women’s representation, but who sadly died this morning. I am sure that they and others will join me in sending condolences to her family and comrades in Scotland.

I shall speak specifically to Amendment 22 in the names of my noble friends Lord Hendy and Lord Hain, and moved very able by my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti, but I also support the other amendments in this group which argue that, should this Bill become law, CCAs could be used only to prevent or deter serious crime. The terms “preventing disorder” and being

“in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom”

are so imprecise that almost any campaigning group or trade union could be included. These criteria are potentially political and could be used simply to defend the status quo against anyone who challenges it.

It seems quite odd that this legislation could not wait until the findings of the Undercover Police Inquiry. As the inquiry progresses, it is hearing that police have been used to spy on any number of groups that were deemed to be “anti-establishment”, even when they were humanitarian organisations such as Operation Omega, which tried to provide humanitarian aid to then East Pakistan. One police officer sent into the group has said:

“They weren’t hurting anyone, they weren’t disturbing anyone. Okay, you could argue that we don’t like to see these things posted on our lampposts, you know, stuff like that.”


He was then asked:

“Did you hear them promote or encourage public disorder?”


He replied:

“That’s a difficult one to answer, because a lot of organisations recommend demonstrations and activity that would bring their cause to the attention of the press and thereby to the rest of the population.”


A demonstration is of course a legitimate form of campaigning, but it is unfortunately seen as illegitimate in some quarters.

The undercover work extended into the trade union movement. Trade unions are a legitimate and essential part of our democracy, as guaranteed by the ILO since 1949. Member countries, including the UK, are required to guarantee the existence, autonomy and activities of trade unions, and to refrain from any interference that would restrict this right or impede their lawful exercise. Despite this, the Metropolitan Police Special Branch established the industrial intelligence unit in 1970 to monitor what it saw as growing industrial unrest. There is, we understand, a present day equivalent in the industrial liaison unit of the national domestic extremism and disorder intelligence unit.

I have no idea what justification could possibly have been used to send spies into humanitarian organisations, political parties or trade unions, but I suspect that preventing disorder and it being in the interest of economic well-being of the United Kingdom will have been used. There can be no justification for this and it should be removed from the Bill.

On Monday we heard the Statement in the other place that there would be no inquiry at this time into the murder of Pat Finucane—even though there is no doubt that there was state collusion in his assassination. After 30 years, the Government will still not shine a light on this atrocious event. His death should serve as a reminder that Governments and their agents can lose the capacity for moral judgment when they convince themselves that only they serve the greater good.

We were told on Tuesday that these examples happened a long time ago and that things have changed. But while the Bill continues to cover more than serious crimes and includes subjective actions such as disorder and economic well-being, it is a danger to anyone involved in politics and trade unionism. We should never grant the legal right for covert actions against citizens whose only crime is to disagree with the Government of the day. This amendment would go some way to achieving that.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the dividing line between a police state and a democratic society with a liberal, humanitarian base is sometimes hard to define. It is not absolute and the dividing line wanders around a certain amount, but one principle should be clear above all, and that is that in the kind of society in which we want to live, the tradition is that the police do their job by public consent. The objective is to maximise good will between the public and the police, to forestall the danger of alienation from the police and the building up of a hostile relationship between police and large sections of the public. That is why, on matters of this kind, it is so important to ensure that it does not become just a convenient device that can be used pretty much at random for interests that cannot be well substantiated in the context of liberal democracy.