Child Poverty

Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone Excerpts

Monday 29th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bird (CB)]

I welcome the chance to sort out the problems of poverty in an hour and a half. I welcome the idea that, in such a short amount of time, we can sort out the problem that a third of all our children are in or around poverty—that is 4 million children in the United Kingdom.

I alert people to my belief that, in the seven or eight years I have been in the House of Lords, I have never come to a debate or discussion where the root causes of things are dealt with. I believe strongly that one of the main problems we have is that Governments, Oppositions and people who have worked for many years in and around poverty are always dealing with the effects of poverty; they do not deal with the root causes of poverty. So when I proposed this small debate, I was actually trying to be revolutionary. I was trying to move the House of Lords—and, I hope, the House of Commons—towards the idea that instead of continuously dealing with the effects of poverty, we move the argument towards the root causes of poverty.

Throughout the world—it is not just the United Kingdom—in the region of about 80% of all money spent on social intervention is spent on dealing with the emergency and problems of coping with poverty. There is very little money spent on prevention or cure—the two opposites. Since the time I came into the House, I have been like a scratched record; I have gone on, again and again, asking when we are going to spend our time on eradicating poverty rather than ameliorating it and trying to accommodate it. That has been my real argument.

I think that His Majesty’s Government and His Majesty’s Opposition, and the previous Governments and Oppositions, have always dealt with the terrible reality poverty throws up. Tonight, I want to be a revolutionary and ask why we do not all look at something quite real. Why is it that, for all our efforts over decades—my decades go back to the end of the Second World War—we have always tried to deal with the obnoxiousness that is thrown up by poverty but we have never done a scientific analysis of the root causes of poverty? We have never had a Government or an Opposition, or an argument within our universities and charities, or among those who get involved in the struggles of the poorest among us, ask when we are going to do something about eradicating poverty.

I am sorry if I sound a bit Joan of Arc. I came into the House of Lords with one strict instruction from the people who encouraged me to come here, which was to help to dismantle and get rid of poverty, not to shift the deckchairs on the Atlantic. My instruction was not to make the poor more comfortable but to actually get rid of the concept of poor people.

I come from poverty, and maybe that is what drives me on. I come from people who came from poverty, who came from poverty and who came from poverty. The interesting thing is that when I grew up, I realised that they were surrounded by poverty; they could not get away from it. The mind-forged manacles that go with poverty meant that they perpetuated it. I have done my best within the lives of my own children to get rid of poverty in their futures, but the larger part of my family is still perpetuating poverty. Why? Because the root causes of poverty were never dealt with in the course of their lives.

To me, the big problem with poverty is the inheritance of poverty. In the United Kingdom, about 4 million children—a third of our children—are in poverty. It is interesting that a third of our children are in and around the problems of poverty, and in spite of all our efforts they remain so. What are we, the Church, the charities or the political parties going to do about it? Will they wake up one day and say, “Actually, we’re getting no nearer”? We know that in the last year, 100,000 more children have arrived in poverty.

We need an enormous mind shift, but I do not see it happening. I do not see anybody building the intellectual appliances or the university courses to find out why we are always trying to address the problems of poverty as if a bit more to the poor will actually change anything.

I came into the House of Lords and was astonished at the number of people who wanted me to get involved in agitating to give poor people more. I was determined, however much it would damage my reputation, not to do that. If the only thing you inherit is poverty, how do we break that situation so that you do not inherit it?

Can I just check: if we have more time, does this mean I can speak for another five minutes?

[Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)]

Speak for ever, as long as you let me speak for ever too.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

God bless you, because I was running out of time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bird (CB)]

I love democracy.

I was born in the London Irish slums of Notting Hill, but we moved to Fulham. On my road, I fell into being a friend of a guy whose family, like mine, came from Ireland. His father had accumulated a number of jobs. He was a very clever guy, even though, like my family, he was ill educated. He became very wealthy and bought his house, so he had a house in Fulham Broadway at a time when my family were living around the corner in social housing—what was called council housing. He became very prosperous and employed 20, 30, then 50 Irish people to make money for him, so that he could buy a house, then a bigger one. There were two kinds of poverty. That guy did not inherit poverty, but my family inherited it and made damn sure that we and other members of my family inherited poverty and the mind-forged manacles that go with it.

What do we actually do to break that situation so that people in poverty are given something—a “je ne sais quoi”, a little thing—that will mean they do not imitate the inherited poverty of their own family? To me, that is the big issue: Patrick Crowell and his mum and dad built a business, made money and became middle class and prosperous, but my family remained in poverty. Their children and their children’s children are still in poverty and stuck in social housing, having all sorts of problems.

I want to know how the House of Lords and the House of Commons, with all their great brains, can help us dismantle the mind-forged manacles that come with poverty and its inheritance. That is my passion. Over the next few months, as we move towards a general election, I will be campaigning through my work in the Big Issue, and in Parliament in general, for a reinvention of social housing.

Do noble Lords know that there are so many people in this world who are defenders of social housing? These people absolutely love it and think it is absolutely brilliant. But do noble Lords know that the children of people who live in social housing rarely finish school, get their qualifications, get skilled and move out of poverty? Do noble Lords know that a fraction, an infinitesimal number of people in social housing, ever get to university or college so that they can then start living a fuller life away from poverty? Do noble Lords know that in housing associations, on average 70% of people are unemployed? I do not want to be interpreted as rude or insensitive, but if you really wanted to condemn somebody to poverty for the next 100 years, you would give them social housing.

[Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)]

You have had 15 minutes.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Forgive me—I am now going to stop—but I wanted to move on to say that this is why I am campaigning to change the way we deal with poverty. We have a situation in which eight government departments are dealing with poverty, but we do not have a convergence to dismantle it. Some 40% of government expenditure is spent on poverty; we really need to change it. I am calling for the creation of a ministry of poverty prevention. I thank noble Lords very much for their time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be able to speak in the gap, because, like the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Meacher, and many others, I worked for Frank Field for four years. I was paid a poverty wage—£12 a week. I was not born in poverty, but I spent 10 years of my life immersing myself in the issues of poverty at the CPAG, encouraging families below the poverty level to keep expenditure diaries. That revealed that if you do not know where the next penny is coming from then you cannot possibly spend economically. Of course, you can budget carefully if you have a stable income, but if you have no idea when you are going to be in work or out of work, in your house, with your partner or without your partner, and maybe you have not had the best education, it is really difficult.

Interestingly, I will remember for ever a West Indian woman working below the poverty level who budgeted and fed her children nutritiously, but she had been brought up understanding about poverty in the West Indies. She came from a culture of poverty that could cope, unlike so many others. It is an interesting point about how you can give people the equipment to manage and to cope.

This was a time of working poor. Keith Joseph, later Lord Joseph, who basically made me a Tory, introduced family income support. It was a time when the trade unions were not at all keen on family benefit. I went to the T&G with the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, to try to persuade that union to support child benefit going to the woman—a stable income. It was very reluctant because it liked supporting income for the man, and all the trade unions then were really male dominated. The world has changed.

There were three people in my life who really cared about poverty. Lord Keith Joseph was the first to talk about the cycle of deprivation. I was at the Pre-school Playgroups Association AGM in Church House when he made his speech about the cycle of deprivation—leaving school early, having no qualifications, having your first child early, and a vicious cycle of poverty. He was criticised for it, but I think few would doubt it now.

The next person who cared about poverty was the late Lord Frank Field. He did not talk only about benefits. My noble friend—sorry, the noble Baroness; she is my friend, but I should not refer to her like that—knows all there is to know about benefits; she has a forensic knowledge. But Lord Field had a wider view. He used to talk about being a five-star parent. He felt strongly about parenting and about families.

The third person is the noble Lord, Lord Bird. Now, I do not agree with a word he says, but I absolutely agree with his passion. To say there are no university departments that take poverty seriously is daft—go to Hull, to LSE, to Essex. To say that the Resolution Foundation, the Child Poverty Action Group and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation do not know all about poverty—they do, and they are very knowledgeable. But what the noble Lord is so right about is that he is passionate, and he is not going to give up.

Now, remember the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Bird. He talked about his probation officer, who basically told him to get a grip and get a job. He talked about Baroness Wootton, a great heroine of mine and juvenile court chairman. My concern is that we can be very patronising and dismissive about poverty, but why do some people get through? Last week, I was with Alan Johnson, who certainly ought to be Lord Johnson; why has the Labour Party not put Alan Johnson in the House of Lords? Please do so, urgently. He is now the Chancellor of the University of Hull, where I was for 17 years. His upbringing was appalling: he was brought up by his mother, who died very young, and then by his sister. How has he become such a success? Some of this relates to the individual, and the ability of people to get through.

I will ask the Minister two questions, because I know I have gone on for too long. A lot of this is about parental conflict, and he leads the department’s Reducing Parental Conflict programme. What can the Minister tell us about reducing parental conflict? I want him to tell us about child maintenance developments, and the childcare programme.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bird, and when he grows up, I hope he will become as good as Lord Field.