Deregulation Bill
Debate between Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury and Lord Grade of Yarmouth(10 years ago)
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Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con)
My Lords, I support everything that the noble Baroness has just said. I fully support the review, as bringing some evidence to bear on the issue of decriminalising non-payment of the licence fee would be very valuable. I suspect that the review can conclude only one thing on the evidence: that this is a solution in search of a problem.
The debate around the problem with the criminalisation of non-payment of the licence fee is full of misinterpretations and deliberate misinformation. You do not go to jail for not paying your licence fee; you may possibly go to jail if you do not pay the fine when you are caught, for not obeying the court order to pay. I understand that it is the same in the civil courts if you do not pay your council tax. That is a civil offence, and if you are ordered to pay by the court, you can similarly go to jail. I do not see the great difference in decriminalisation.
The idea that the courts are swamped with licence fee avoiders and non-payers is, again, a myth. The average time that is spent dealing with these mostly uncontested cases is 3 minutes and 13 seconds. That will improve, as I believe there are moves afoot to have a single magistrate hearing these cases. Jail seems to be a last resort. That is not based on empirical evidence, but I think it is generally accepted anecdotally that people who end up having to go to jail are people with a long track record of not paying fines and of disobeying court orders. The licence fee turns up as the last straw in the case, and magistrates lose their patience with the individuals.
There is not a problem in that sense. The problem lies in the decriminalisation issue being used by the enemies of the BBC—the commercial and ideological enemies—to move to a point where the BBC has to move to a voluntary subscription or voluntary payment model. That would totally destroy one of the great glories of UK plc and one of the greatest and most recognised international brands in the world— the British Broadcasting Corporation. It would be severely damaged if the Government rushed into some hasty measure such as decriminalising on the pretext of solving a problem which does not actually exist on the evidence. I am confident that the review panel will come to that conclusion.
It is very serious that the Government of the day could consider changing the basis on which the BBC licence fee is collected and its basis in statute ahead of the charter review. That is the obvious and simple process that has been enshrined and which will give everybody an opportunity to take their time and decide what the best thing to do is in this particular case. I fully support this amendment and I can see no reason whatever to expedite the results or any preview of the results of the review ahead of the charter review. This is a very serious matter. Decriminalisation could become a Trojan horse for those who wish to see the destruction of the British Broadcasting Corporation. I hope the Government will give some assurance today, or maybe at future stages of this Bill, that they understand that issue and that they will therefore not move hastily to change anything, other than through the normal process of charter review.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)
My Lords, I rise very briefly to support the amendment and what the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and my noble friend Lord Grade have just said. I agree with him in supporting a review. I will quote David Attenborough, whose words exemplify my view of what our broadcasting system, at the heart of which the BBC sits, has achieved:
“The BBC is in my view one of the most important strands in the cultural life of this country … But what could happen is it is diminished”.
If so,
“it would no longer be the BBC and that would be a catastrophe for the country”.
In order for the BBC not to be diminished, it needs a good licence fee settlement. I thought that the previous settlement was rushed through, and I hope that the next one takes a greater length of time. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said, the BBC needs to be able to forward-plan; it needs to know how much money it has. That is one of the commitments that were made during the previous, rushed settlement. Whatever comes out of this review, it is essential that it should not mean that that commitment is reneged on. The amount of money that the BBC has to use should remain the same until April 2017.
Media: Ownership
Debate between Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury and Lord Grade of Yarmouth
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, it is a rule of the House that for it to be in order only one person should be on their feet at one time. I am sure that noble Lords on all Benches wish to abide by that. I am aware that my noble friend Lord Fowler has recently spoken. Perhaps we should hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, before we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Grade, unless another Member of the House wishes to speak first.