Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Friday 24th April 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

It was the in principle issue that I was discussing rather than amendments, but I take the most reverend Primate’s point completely.

I have jumped now to costs. The cost is about the same as the cost of accidents caused by wearing flip-flops. My estimate is, and I have had some better economists than I check, that the cost estimated for this is about two hours of NHS spending time. Would we say that NHS is not going to spend money on people who have had accidents wearing flip-flops,going skiing or horseracing or doing dangerous sports, that we would not come to their aid because it was too expensive? So how can we put costs in over this?

Progress could have been faster, it could have been more focused, it could have even been forensic had we concentrated on the big issues. I apologise to those affected, some of whom are with us today, because we have failed in what we should have done.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise that this is a day of disappointment. I am keenly aware of those who viewed this law as the solution to their plight, but also of those for whom the clear failure of proper provision of palliative services will not be solved any time soon and for those living with disabilities or with children with disabilities who struggle to access healthcare today. I also recognise that there is disappointment for many in their perception of their Parliament. I have, in my 15 years here, witnessed the best of parliamentary legislating as I sat on the Joint Committee scrutinising the Mental Health Bill after an independent review, a White Paper and a government response, but in my 15 years, this is not the best. I have said numerous times in Committee that the Private Member’s Bill process is being asked to replace pre-legislative scrutiny, and it cannot do that, so there is no surprise that huge concerns remain.

I will speak briefly of just two examples—it was going to be three, but I am mindful of time—that could have been dealt with if there had been pre-legislative scrutiny. First, the consultative palliative care expert Jamilla Hussain said in the Guardian on 18 May 2025:

“I am deeply concerned about the provision that there is no requirement to inform family or next of kin until after the assisted death has occurred”.


This led me to think that children could be that next of the kin who would be the first informed and then to the question of children as interpreters, so I tabled amendments in that regard. The latter amendment about interpreters was the subject of enormous criticism on social media, but it was not, in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, a “bureaucratic” amendment. It was not “procedural obstruction”, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hunter, said. It was an important amendment, and it was not until the Select Committee of your Lordships’ House that Parliament first heard from the Children’s Commissioners about the impact on children, although outside the scope of the Bill, of the societal change we were going to introduce.

My second instance, or expert, is the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. I have enjoyed the intellectual engagement in those meetings, and I am grateful for them, particularly the meeting that was held with Professor Alex Ruck Keene KC on the nuances of the Mental Capacity Act, down to the detail of decided case law. However, when the discussion came to the Mental Health Act, we got back to the basic outline principle that the Mental Health Act is not based on capacity. You can be detained repeatedly under the Mental Health Act but still have capacity. It was clear to me when leaving that meeting that we had gone from nuanced detail to basic principle and that we needed to have a look at the interconnection of the Mental Health Act and this Bill before we started.

I will conclude where I began, with the different views of the world—which was also the subject of a meeting with the noble and learned Lord. He came from a place of individual autonomy and choice when beginning to legislate. But as I outlined at Second Reading, that is an anathema to many people who live in close community—whether that is geographical, in the north-east, or within a faith community. As other noble Lords have outlined, I think there is disappointment among some people of faith that their motivations and views have been used so casually and negatively in the media campaign—although, I note, never by the noble and learned Lord in my meetings.

It is interesting that Professor John Lennox, emeritus professor of mathematics at Oxford, quoted an unusual source in Westminster Hall in June last year. He said:

“Polly Toynbee was spot on when she wrote in The Guardian: ‘Every day in Parliament, fundamentally different worldviews do battle. Politics is all about the clash of moral universes’”.


Atheistic, materialistic, secular, humanist, Judaeo-Christian, liberal and now neoliberal viewpoints are all welcome. I would hate to think what William Wilberforce or Martin Luther King would think if it were otherwise.

I have two final practical points. Away from your Lordships’ House, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, and Lord Williams of Oystermouth are going to have a debate on the principle of this Bill on “Intelligence Squared”. If this view of the involvement of religious motivations is shared by the noble and learned Baroness, I would love to see her on a platform of that scale to discuss her views and intellectually engage properly on that issue, which is key to our liberal, democratic society.

My second point is to reiterate to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that the Private Member’s Bill process has not served us well. I am sad to see the polarisation and the polemic nature of many of our debates. I hope we can find a way to look at what has happened with this Bill to prevent it happening ever again.

My final point is to do generally with the law. I hear the comments from my noble friend Lord Dobbs, but for the parents of disabled children, we have not spoken sufficiently of whether the law will protect their children when they are gone.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Committee stage
Friday 27th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

When I mention drafting changes, I mean in relation to the timing of this. As drafted, it would need to be done before the application is granted, and it may be that the requirement to go to the local authority could be at the same time as having approved it, not before. But, yes, this would be an additional requirement on the panel.

I hope the noble and learned Lord the sponsor or the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, can help with my second point on the principle of the Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, referred to the situation based on autonomy: the individual wants to do this and does not want to tell relatives. If we are strict purists about that—we had evidence on this at the Select Committee—then with this Bill there could be a situation where the first time anyone hears about the death is when the medical examiner telephones a relative.

I have tabled amendments in a different group on a requirement to nominate next of kin who are over the age of 18. I think it would be useful for the Committee to know what the situation is if someone acts completely autonomously like this and the body is there. Does the noble and learned Lord the sponsor need to bolt on a provision so that there is a public health burial? That is the continuation of the logic of this that you can do this alone, with no one in your life knowing about it. Therefore, to exercise that autonomy fully, there would need to be a public health burial, with everything done before anyone in the family knows. That is a conceptual difference. The noble and learned Lord and I spoke about this in a meeting in relation to what the law is, and it would be good for him to clarify the situation. Can the medical examiner not call anybody and go forward with a public health burial?

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness understand that, quite often, people die and their family does not know about it?

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

Absolutely, and therefore the medical examiner’s evidence is that, when they have the body in that circumstance, they are under an obligation, we think, to locate and find a relative. Sadly, this happens more frequently than we would like to think, and the local authority powers to perform a public health burial then become apparent. So, yes, there are these situations.

It is important to clarify this in relation to this Bill, because we have this evidence from the medical examiner that the first the family might know is when they are called by the medical examiner. We need to be clear about that and about the position of families. Is this personal autonomy—that is the conceptual point—so fully and properly enacted that there would be a public health burial, without any obligation to inform anybody that this is happening?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

Sadly, for the noble and learned Lord, I think that there are more amendments that need to be discussed, including one that I have laid. We have all discussed this on the basis that there is no one else in the room. There could be relatives there expressing a wish. We have discussed this on the basis that the patient rises and has capacity. They may not have capacity and there may be relatives in the room with enduring powers of attorney. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, shakes her head, but there are many scenarios in which there is not clarity in the Bill between the moment the drug is administered and the moment of death or it fails. I am afraid that I give the noble and learned Lord notice that I think we will have to come back to this, because the medical profession is asking for clarity.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Can I put it on record that I am not shaking my head? I think it was made clear that the power of attorney could not be used for this purpose.

Public Health England Review: Covid-19 Disparities

Debate between Baroness Berridge and Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town

Monday 8th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, my criticism of the Government’s Answer is that even after the PHE review of disparities and risks and outcomes related to Covid-19 failed to include recommendations, the reply again talks about trying to understand the causes of disparities. Let us be clear: coronavirus thrives on inequality, and inequality thrives on inaction. Let us have no delay for research on causes but real action now to protect BAME people at risk from the virus. Will the Minister tell the House what actions the Government are taking to mitigate the very real risks BAME communities face right now?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Department for International Trade (Baroness Berridge) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is important that we understand the various drivers of the disparities and the relationship between different risk factors. It has been accepted that the report has some limitations; for example, the ethnicity analysis does not adjust for factors such as comorbidities such as underlying health conditions of hypertension and obesity. It is imperative that we do the next stage of looking at the data and the connections to ensure that we fill in the gaps of understanding and developing new policies so that we act on a proper and scientific basis; otherwise, we risk making matters worse, which no one would want us to do.