School Buildings: Safety

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, safe and well-maintained school buildings are a priority. We are actively working with the sector to help identify reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, or RAAC. If RAAC is suspected, we commission professionals to verify its presence and assess its condition. We support schools, including with capital funding, in measures to ensure that it does not pose any immediate risk and to minimise disruption based on professional advice.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer, but the Government have already admitted that current funding will not be enough to make all schools safe. Will she tell us how long children, parents and school staff will have to wait for schools to be made safe once the data on their condition is finally released?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I want to be absolutely clear to the noble Baroness and the House that the department is not aware of any child or member of staff being in a school which poses an imminent safety risk. We are working as fast as is humanly possible to identify RAAC across the school estate. We sent out a questionnaire last year and nearly 90% of schools and responsible bodies have sent in their initial responses. We are working closely with the structural engineering sector to identify accurately whether RAAC is present and whether it poses a risk.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

Following on from my noble friend’s answer, is she confident that there is enough capacity among surveyors to identify RAAC in schools before, as the noble Baroness said, issues become too serious? We have had similar problems in other parts of the public sector estate, hospitals for instance, where there have been safety issues because of RAAC. Perhaps she could provide us with reassurance on this issue.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her question. I hope it reassures her to know that I have met twice already the leading structural engineering firms. We have looked at different ways that we can accelerate the pace of surveys and are very confident that we will have carried out at least 600 surveys by the autumn.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister give us an assurance that any new school is constructed with a material that we expect to have to pull down and will not fall down before we get there?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can give the House that reassurance. Not only that but any new school we construct will be net zero in operation.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, obviously, responsible bodies are legally responsible for the safety of the building. They come in all shapes and sizes. It could be a very strong, robust local authority or a large multi-academy trust with a lot of expertise; conversely, it could be a local authority that is in intervention with commissioners or a trust which has only one school. Of the 10% which have not returned their surveys, can my noble friend the Minister outline how we are going to approach those responsible bodies to make sure they respond and find out whether they are in that risky category because they are weak for other reasons?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not think we can say that the 10% which have not responded are weak. We are dealing with it by running a small call centre in the department. There are organisations that we have had to contact multiple times—including, sadly, some local authorities—and we are working with MPs and others to make sure we get all the returns. We are also supporting, in slightly slower time, all trusts to improve their competency in relation to the management of their estate, including rolling out a free specialist capital adviser programme to support them in estate management.

[Lord Hendy (Lab)]

My Lords, one aspect of safety in schools is fire safety. I declare an interest as a vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Fire Safety and Rescue Group. In 2007, draft guidance was given that predicted that most schools would be fitted with sprinklers and very few would not. In 2021, further draft guidance was published which predicted the contrary: that very few schools would be fitted with sprinklers. I understand the consultation on that has not been published yet and therefore the guidance has not come into effect two years later. I understand, too, that the problem is that there is a division of opinion between the department on one side, which thinks the risk is low, and the insurance industry and fire chiefs on the other, which think the risk is high. Would the Minister be content to attend a meeting of the APPG with representatives of the insurance industry and fire chiefs to see whether there is some methodology to ascertain precisely what the risk is and therefore the need or lack of it for sprinklers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I would be delighted to meet the APPG, but I remind the noble Lord that there are 67,000 buildings on the school estate and about 450 fires a year, 90% of which cause no significant damage.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that a much greater danger to children in our schools comes from a judge’s ruling last week that parents are not allowed to know about the relationships and sex education that their children are given? This is a hugely controversial area. Parents may knock on the door of a school to ask what is being taught to their children, and can be denied. Does my noble friend accept that this is a nonsense that undermines the heart of family responsibilities and parental authority? Would the Government please do something quickly to make clear what parental rights are in knowing what their children are being taught?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am delighted to be able to let my noble friend know that the Government have already acted on this. We wrote to every school to be clear about exactly that relationship between parent and school and that trust, particularly on these very sensitive topics, is essential. Schools should not enter into arrangements with third parties that prohibit them sharing curriculum materials with parents.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

To get back to the Question about the safety of school buildings, can the Minister give an assurance that schools deemed to be at risk have been made safe or at least closed until urgent repairs can take place? Is she also aware that teachers leaving the profession cite the state of school buildings and the environment in which they work as one of their reasons for leaving?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am very happy to give the noble Baroness reassurance on that point. To be clear, the returns that we have had from schools about whether they suspect RAAC on their estate indicate that a significant percentage believe they do, but then when we send the surveyors in, in fact they do not. When RAAC is identified, some poses a risk, but some does not. In every case where a risk is posed, whether in a single store cupboard or a whole block, we send our team in and work closely with the school, trust and local authority to provide both practical and financial support to address issues as quickly as possible.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness knows that schools have made great progress on incorporating children who have special needs of all kinds. Sometimes, the buildings are an impediment to this. Has work been undertaken to ensure that schools are adapted to meet the needs of children with very special needs?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

That is extremely important. Access to and the shape of a building should never be an impediment to a child’s learning. That is more straightforward in the new schools we are building, but we are making adjustments and supporting schools through our existing capital programmes to address exactly the needs that the noble Lord raises.