Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Whitaker

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my support to the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, to which my noble friend Lord Rosser has added his name. She has hit eloquently on an important omission in our capacity to deal with young offenders.

When I and members of the Gypsy and Traveller communities first lobbied for an extension of the census categories to include Gypsies and Travellers, before the increase in our Roma population, we did so because important areas of discrimination, resulting in significantly poorer life chances, were undocumented and a minority ethnic population of very long standing was simply unrecognised in many sets of official statistics. When we eventually achieved this in 2011 we thought that at last the public services would begin to understand more about the significantly worse outcomes in health, education, employment, housing and experience of the criminal justice system endured by many from these communities.

It remains disappointing that the Youth Justice Board has not taken advantage of the opportunity of the 2011 census categories to map more accurately what happens to young Gypsy, Traveller and Roma people. I am grateful for useful meetings with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, as chair of the Youth Justice Board, and his officials on the subject. His acknowledgment that the current system is not robust was welcome and I appreciate his commitment to improvement in data gathering. However, the fact remains that records still do not consistently capture more of the reality of who the young people who go through our criminal justice system are.

There are, of course, some external obstacles. Many young people from the Gypsy and Traveller communities are fearful of admitting their ethnicity because of the bullying and exclusion which has been meted out to them in the past. But trust can be developed if the information is shown to be helpful.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, it would be very important to be able to correlate the probable overrepresentation of these young people with literacy levels and mental health status—also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Their experience of education and accommodation has often been deeply unsatisfactory, but we cannot begin to make these links and to do something about it until we have the data tools.

As has been said, we know that both HM Inspectorate of Prisons and the lead chief constable for Gypsy, Traveller and Roma issues have called for the change the amendment would provide. The excellent Irish Chaplaincy's Traveller Equality Project has really positive evidence of good practice to justify the use of up-to-date information in the adult prison estate.

I hope, therefore, that the Minister will see the point too and accept this amendment.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of Amendments 228A and 228B in the name of my noble friend Lady Brinton. The arguments for ethnic monitoring are well versed and I will touch upon them briefly. As has already been said, without ethnic monitoring it is very difficult for public services to identify, and therefore address, any inequalities which vulnerable groups may be experiencing. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has said, whenever there have been research or studies into the experiences of Gypsies, Travellers and Roma in custodial institutions—in either the youth or adult estates—these communities are almost always shown to have worse experiences and greater care needs.

Voices Unheard: A Study of Irish Travellers in Prison found that over 20% of Traveller young offenders were identified as having mental health issues. This is an alarming number and needs a co-ordinated effort in order to be addressed. However, as we know, without ethnic monitoring and consistent data it is unlikely that such an intervention would take place. As the report’s author, Dr Conn Mac Gabhann—I hope I have pronounced that correctly—said in an interview on this issue recently:

“While ethnic monitoring will not solve all the problems Gypsy and Traveller children face in the youth criminal justice system, it will be an important step in helping us to highlight the problems and issues they face and ensure these issues become a target to be tackled”.

I have little more to add to the very powerful speeches of my noble friend Lady Brinton, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. They have covered the ground extremely well. I hope the Government can support these amendments and ensure that the issues affecting young Gypsies and Travellers in the youth justice system can finally be addressed.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville and Baroness Whitaker

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 94. I support wholeheartedly the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. In Committee, we had a very positive and informative debate on the need to provide for the accommodation needs of people whose lifestyles, culture and ethos are of a nomadic nature. It is unfortunately the case that Gypsies, in particular, suffer prejudice and abuse on a scale that would be simply unacceptable if directed towards any other section of our communities.

Different sections of the travelling communities have their own ethos, values and beliefs, which make it difficult, and often impossible, for them to live together in harmony on the same site. This makes it imperative for there to be separate sites for each group. We are now seeing sites where second-generation Gypsies are living and where great pride is taken in the appearance of the site. These sites are their homes, from which they can access health services and education, a luxury that continual moving on hinders. In the past, Gypsies and others travelled to access employment, often associated with agriculture and horticulture. That traditional employment is no longer available in the same quantities, requiring more permanent sites from which to access employment of a different nature. This does not mean that they are moving away from a nomadic lifestyle and should be forced into bricks and mortar, which does not meet their ethnic or cultural needs. Often the homeless—non-Gypsies—are reported as being accommodated by some local authorities in caravans on Gypsy sites. This is regrettable and a breach of planning conditions that stipulate that the site is for those of Roma Gypsy origin only.

The Welsh Assembly has grasped the nettle of site provision by requiring local authorities to demonstrate that they have made adequate provision for a five-year supply of new sites. It is possible to provide sites at no cost to the public purse, as is the case in South Somerset. Gypsies and travelling show people make minimal use of social services, as they look after their own. It is their culture to take care of their elderly themselves.

I turn now to the issue of the storage of equipment on sites. This is something of a red rag to a bull on Gypsy sites. Equipment is not stored on each of our local authority family pitches, as this would be a breach of fire regulations and needs to be kept separate. Travelling show people do, however, by the very nature of their business, need more space for the storage of equipment. South Somerset District Council is ahead of the curve in meeting the needs of Gypsies and Travellers in their local plan. If Gypsies and Travellers have the money to provide their own sites, why should they be on local authority sites? Most Gypsy families are local to their areas and travel within a 25-mile radius, but they will move on if forced to. Priority should be given for local connections to the area, in our case Somerset. This has not led to an influx of Travellers.

The public prefer allocations of smaller sites, as this prevents large numbers in one area. In Committee, we heard eloquently from the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, of the problems a large site caused near him. Small sites prevent the settled community from feeling dominated by large concentrations. There is a whole host of brownfield areas around the country where a small corner could adequately accommodate Gypsy and Traveller sites. MOD redundant airfields are ideal, as the hard standing is already there. More imagination is needed in dealing with the needs of Gypsies, Travellers and travelling showmen. I support these amendments and look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I added my name to Amendments 93A and 94, powerfully advocated by my noble friend Lord Beecham and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. I added it on the clear basis that, unless Gypsies and Travellers—words which, by the way, should begin with capital letters, as recognised ethnic categories—are explicitly cited in the statute, along with travelling show people, local authorities will simply ignore their specific needs and airbrush them out of their reckonings, as they have done for so long. I will not rehearse the arguments made so powerfully in Committee, which were not really addressed in their nub and gist by the Government. Far from simplifying the law if the reference is omitted, as the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, said, in Committee, it will make it less precise and more open to fudge. It would be still better, of course, if this repeal were not in the Bill, which is what every single member of the Gypsy, Traveller and travelling show people communities to whom I have spoken thinks.

If the Government cling to their ideological insistence that equality is served only by flattening out difference, my noble friend’s amendments would relax the framework by proposing a planning policy rather than a statutory definition. There will still be a need, of course, to improve the Government’s definition of Gypsies and Travellers in this planning policy guidance so that those who have been forced to give up their traditional nomadic way of life through the absence of sites are not excluded. I hope that the Minister can give us some comfort on this. I urge him to accept the amendment and avoid the prospect of further judicial review.