Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 12th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I rise more to inquire than to support particular amendments. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for tabling his amendments. I imagine that they are probing amendments, and that is the spirit in which I wish to address them. I declare that I am an honorary associate of the British Veterinary Association, and I am grateful to it for the briefing that it has given today.

The first question I put to the Minister for my better understanding is what the difference is between cloning an animal and gene-editing an animal or animal product. I did not follow it that closely, but I was very proud that my alma mater, Edinburgh University, was the first university in the world, I understand, to clone an animal—Dolly the sheep. However, it was not entirely successful as I understand she had a very short life. Obviously, one has to ask whether the reason for her curtailed life was that she had been cloned and not produced in a normal way.

The BVA brief that I have received today states:

“Prioritisation of animal health and welfare is essential, as is the use of adequate product labelling to enable transparency and consumer choice”—


I know we will come to those amendments in a different group. In particular, the BVA states, and I support this:

“Breeding and genetic modification must be used in an ethically responsible way to improve animal health and welfare, increase efficiency, and support sustainable agriculture.”


It goes on:

“The Bill is misleading and proposing deregulation based on the incorrect premise that ‘traditional breeding’ results in characteristics which can be assumed ‘safe’, and therefore gene-edited organisms which produce the same outcome are also ‘safe’. This ignores the potential for mutations.”


The Bill has “precision breeding” in its title, but this group of amendments goes to the fact that it can never be precise, because we can never be sure of the consequences, so perhaps it should be called the “imprecise breeding” Bill.

The reason that I am tempted to support a number of amendments in this group, particularly Amendment, 1 is the very fact that it states that,

“‘directed bred organism’” means a directed bred plant or a directed bred animal.”

It is important to understand in what way that plant or animal has been directed and that there is scope for an imprecise outcome, an unexpected outcome. As the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for whom I am full of awe and praise, with his widespread knowledge and, even more, his experience, said, we could be creating something of which we cannot control the outcome. I am not saying that I stand in the way of that, but I would like better to understand what it is.

There was a news story last night about a little girl whose cancer had not been cured until they came up with a gene-editing formula. They edited genes and implanted them in her, and it looks as though she may now have a cure. However, we are at the very early stage of these procedures, as I understand it, and I believe that there is some sympathy still for the view that the European Union took, which is widely criticised in this House and the other place. Probably the reason that the European Union and its institutions overreacted was the widespread fear among consumers. I think that fear is still there. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, has tabled a number of amendments which we will deal with in another group and with which I have a degree of sympathy. As I said at Second Reading, if this procedure, this form of breeding is so good, why can we not be told about it on labelling? Why should consumers have the barrier of having to go to a register? With those few remarks, I support the thinking behind some of the amendments in this group.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for not being present at Second Reading. I had a hospital appointment and, having waited some time for it, did not want to postpone it for what could have been another three months. I did, however, watch the debate on Parliament TV and will make a short contribution.

The noble Lord, Lord Winston, made a very valuable and knowledgeable contribution in seeking clarification on the definitions within the Bill. It is important that we all understand completely what the Government mean by the various terms and what the outcomes will be, especially if there are likely to be unintended consequences. It is the role of this Chamber to ensure that there are no unintended consequences or mutations in the future, and that the quality of life for any animal so produced needs to be good. That was not the case with Dolly the sheep. It is important that the phrases used in the Bill are easily understood by those who will affected by its implementation. As the noble Lord, Lord Winston, said, the results of previous debates on GMOs received a bad press, which did the science no favours at all.

In Amendment 86, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, also seeks clarification. She wishes the Title of the Bill to be changed so that the somewhat anodyne phrase “Precision Breeding” would be replaced by “Genome Editing”. I have sympathy with this proposed alteration, as I believe that phrase is more accurate and more likely to be easily understood by the public than “Precision Breeding”. The Bill is, after all, intended to modify and edit the genome of plants in a shorter timeframe than would normally happen. Being married to an aeronautical engineer, for me, and possibly others, a phrase such as “precision engineering” conjures up an entirely different picture than the thrust and purpose that the Bill has. I look forward to the Minister’s response to this short group of amendments, which sets the tone for the rest of our debate today.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Winston for introducing these amendments. This group explores why “genome editing” has been changed to “Precision Breeding” in the Title of the Bill and throughout it, when, as my noble friend pointed out, it has no scientific meaning. As he said, there is no such thing as precision in biology. He clearly, and in some detail, expressed his concerns about the implications of the Bill. As he also said, as yet there has been no detailed debate during the Bill’s passage around the science. I am sure that we will have that debate in your Lordships’ House, as there are some very eminent people here who know far more about the science than I could ever hope to learn.

My noble friend’s amendments quite rightly probe the Government’s thinking around the terminology. Importantly, he raised the fact that what we need as an outcome of the Bill is the breeding of plants and animals that are free of risk. Again, he talked about the implications of hereditary traits and the fact that the Bill’s focus is on releasing organisms. We need to think much more about how that is happening, and what the implications are as we put the Bill through into becoming an Act.

We know that in the Bill and during the debates—

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[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 31. First, for the purposes of this Committee, I declare my interests: I am still involved in a family farming enterprise, growing crops and rearing livestock; I chair the board of the UK Centre for Ecology & Hydrology; and I am the president of the Royal Association of British Dairy Farmers.

Amendment 31 is similar to the two amendments that I put down in a later group on animal welfare, stressing the importance of following new strains of wheat, grass and maize—in my case, cows, pigs, sheep and dogs—down through many generations on to the farm, even into the home. As has already been said, the point is that we need to watch for the good effects, hopefully, but we must also look out for the possible unintended consequences that might arise. To be honest, I would hope that this already happens because, obviously, unintended consequences were even more likely to happen in the past under the random mutations of traditional breeding; if not, such measures should certainly be introduced now. It would be good to be reassured of that by the Minister.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, gave a very good introduction to these two amendments. Several of the speakers at Second Reading referred to the benefits of gene editing to enable crops to be hardier with regard to resisting drought and flood and the ability to repel insects. It is obvious to all that climate change is having a dramatic effect on crops; in many cases, it is devastating. Unlike the noble Lords, Lord Winston and Lord Krebs, my technical knowledge on gene editing is woefully inadequate. However, I will do my best.

Not only in England but in other countries as well, farmers are finding their crops destroyed by the forces of nature, which they are powerless to combat. In many cases, this has led to a shortage of crops to feed indigenous populations, resulting in food loss and, in some instances, the starvation of large numbers of populations. Attempting to ensure that crops are more resilient is important. However, at the same time, it is essential that the natural cycle of our wild plants is protected. Both the Agriculture Act and the Environment Act focused on the loss of biodiversity in our natural habitats in fields and hedgerows. The environmental land management schemes are intended to help biodiversity recover so that natural species of plants, birds and small animals recover to a sustainable level. However, if the gene editing of crops and plants affects ecosystems to such an extent that it alters their natural cycle, this will undoubtedly have an effect on wild flowers, which in turn will affect birds and small mammals.

This comes down to the precautionary principle and ensuring that action taken as a result of this Bill is closely monitored and does more good than harm. When moving forward with technology, which although tested is likely to move more quickly than traditional methods in the past, the prevention principle should also form a part of the equation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, spoke eloquently at Second Reading of the last time gene editing was debated and how the debate got bogged down to such an extent that it had to be abandoned. It is not our intention on these Benches to see this happen a second time. It is time to move on, but we are looking for safeguards for the future. Without the necessary safeguards, unintended consequences could be hard to reverse. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, made very powerful points in their arguments, with which I agree. I hope the Minister will be able to give the reassurances which are sought around the workings of the advisory committee.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for not speaking at the Second Reading of this Bill; I was not on the team at that point.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch for tabling the two amendments in this group, which we understand to be probing amendments. As my noble friend said about Amendment 2, she is challenging how far technology is applied. Do we want to go beyond certain sectors? How far beyond agriculture do we want to go? Amendment 31 is about the wider environmental concerns and reporting on the potential disruption to the farming ecosystem, which could have adverse effects on other plants.

As several speakers noted at Second Reading, the use of gene-editing technologies in plants is far less contentious than in animals. There is not only a much larger body of evidence from research institutions, following years of trials, but that evidence points to the risks being substantially lower. However, even if the risks are lower and potentially easier to mitigate, we must remain mindful of them. Regardless of whether these technologies are used for plant or animal life, we are dealing with processes that accelerate natural events and which may have—we have already heard this phrase—unintended consequences. Indeed, I have heard that phrase in your Lordships’ House over and again during the process of many Bills this Session. It seems to point to an uneasiness with what is being proposed and a lack of thinking things through during the process of legislation.

One imagines that the bulk of releases and marketing authorisations under this legislation will relate to agricultural products. If we can produce certain crops in a more efficient manner, or make them less susceptible to increasingly frequent extreme weather events, that could be a good thing. But we must remember that agricultural crops live alongside wild plants—grasses, wildflowers, trees and hedgerows—all of which have their own important roles in the natural world and in the careful and precious ecosystem. These amendments allow us to consider how new gene-edited varieties of crops will live alongside and interact with other types of plant life

It may be that there is a place for these technologies beyond agriculture, such as making certain tree species less susceptible to disease. I remember well, as leader of Newport City Council, when we had to deal with the significant problem of ash dieback. Large areas of ash trees were felled, with a significant impact on local wooded areas. We had a policy of planting two trees for every tree cut down on land we were responsible for, so felled ash trees were replaced with other suitable trees. If technology could help prevent such drastic measures, that can only be a positive thing.

Regardless of the precise applications of the technologies, it is not clear that the Bill as drafted takes full account of the potential consequences of new plant varieties once they are released. The Government’s environmental land management schemes and other initiatives are trying to halt the steady decline in our biodiversity which has been caused in part by the loss of meadows and hedges and the habitats they sustain. These efforts are hugely important, and there is a role for gene-edited plant varieties as we seek to achieve that goal. However, concerns have been raised by experts in this Committee that seemingly minor changes to agricultural, forestry and other land management practices arising from the use of new plant varieties could inadvertently have significant impacts on soil quality and wildlife in the medium to long term. These amendments provide the Government with an opportunity to address these concerns and outline how they will ensure that this new regime fits into efforts to protect and enhance our natural environment. I urge the adoption of them by the Government.

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[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 74 in this group. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for crediting me with knowledge of international law on IP, but in fact I am not very well informed on that. I will raise some questions that were put to me by the Royal Society, which suggested an amendment of this nature. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, and my noble friend Lord Patel for putting their names to the amendment. My noble friend Lord Patel sends his apologies; he is stranded in Scotland, as are many other noble Lords, I suspect.

My amendment merely asks the Government to review and publish guidance on the implications of the Bill for the law of intellectual property. This is important because all those involved in the development and marketing of precision-bred organisms need to know where they stand. Are these organisms to be treated, from the point of view of IP, like transgenic organisms or like conventionally bred organisms? GMOs currently enjoy greater intellectual property protection than new plant and animal varieties produced using other breeding technologies, which is justified in part by the greater expense of securing regulatory approval for the cultivation of varieties carrying GM traits.

But intellectual property protections significantly reduce the accessibility of the benefits of genetic technologies, and they also contribute to public concerns about the commercial use of technologies. As we heard at Second Reading, the fact that Monsanto and other companies had patent rights for GMOs and had inserted terminator genes into the plants was a major objection to transgenic crops 20-odd years ago.

If genome-edited products are not treated as GMOs, they should enjoy no greater intellectual property protection than the products of traditional breeding technologies, such as plant breeders’ rights—the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, also made this point. Members of the plant breeding industry need to be able to breed from each other’s varieties, and it would not be in the public interest if the adoption of genome editing for crop improvement were to compromise the ability of plant breeders to make crosses with each other’s varieties.

Plant breeders may argue that they should benefit from patent protection in the same way as for GMOs in order to recover their costs, including the royalties to which the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred on the CRISPR technology. However, I suggest that the public interest overrides this argument. Therefore, I very much hope that the Minister will confirm that, since precision-bred organisms are defined in the Bill as equivalent to organisms that could have been produced by conventional breeding, they will not enjoy greater IP protection than conventional varieties. Surely this is the logical conclusion.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, have spoken eloquently to this small group of amendments. The technical aspects of the Bill are complex and he has already mentioned the matter raised by the Royal Society. If a new seed variety is developed using GMOs, as he said, it has greater intellectual property rights than one that is developed using other breeding technologies. If some genome-edited products are not treated as GMOs, they should enjoy no greater intellectual property protection than the products of traditional breeding technologies, such as plant breeders’ rights.

The whole issue of novel foods is affected by the Bill and these amendments. The Royal Society believes that those in the plant breeding industry need to be able to breed from each other’s varieties, and it would not be in the public interest if the adoption of genome editing for crop improvement were to compromise the ability of plant breeders to make crosses with each other’s varieties. I am really sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, is not here because I feel he would be interested in this section. The ownership of intellectual property needs to be addressed before the Bill moves forward to Report. I agree completely with the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and I look forward to the response of the Minister.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for tabling Amendment 12, and to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, for tabling Amendment 74, which my noble friend Lady Hayman of Ullock was pleased to sign. Issues around intellectual property were not explored in any detail in another place; nor did the topic feature heavily in the Hansard report of Second Reading. Some may argue that such matters are pushing the scope of this legislation, but we believe it is vital that all interested parties understand the regimes that will apply once the Bill is passed and enacted.

For a product to make it to market, it will have been subject to research, testing, scaling up and the release and marketing processes laid out in the Bill. This will involve significant costs for those who develop the technologies and associated products. We understand that they will want to protect that work and the underlying financial investments to the best of their abilities. On the other hand, for this process to be successful, we need to see fair prices for the farmers who will utilise these technologies or the new plant and animal varieties that arise from them. At present, it is not clear what IP regimes will apply. We can make assumptions, but there is no certainty. As a result, we do not know how many players will bring these new products to market, nor how many farmers will be able to afford them. Amendment 74 offers a way forward, requiring the Secretary of State to publish guidance on these matters prior to bringing the bulk of the Bill’s provisions into force.

These matters are incredibly complex and perhaps not best dealt with through additions to the final version of the Bill. However, this is Committee, and we hope that the Minister will be able to provide an indication that this work is not only in progress, but that appropriate guidance will be in place at the earliest opportunity.

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I take the noble Lord’s points. We have to make it clear that we will not allow organisms to come on to the market that would somehow make it harder for us to adapt. There are so many benefits that we can introduce to tackle things such as drought and other issues that plague farmers. We have climate change affecting farmers here and now in this country. It is not something that is happening in Pacific countries alone; it is in our country, and we need to give farmers the tools to deal with it.

On the noble Lord’s other point, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said earlier, irradiation—if I have got the word right—is an established part of plant breeding today. He is right. I can see an overlap in this, but I will write to him and make sure that we give him the facts that he needs. With that, I hope that we can progress.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, although I thank the Minister for his response, I am obviously somewhat disappointed by it. I understand the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, to speed up the process, but I fail to understand how consulting with the EU would affect that. It certainly would delay it a little bit, but not by the years and years that the noble Lord indicated. I believe that a Bill introducing a process which alters the genome of crops and animals ought to have a review every five years. I accept that the Minister feels that there are sufficient reviews in place—I just do not necessarily agree with him.

The Minister spoke about a consultation that took place—he did not say exactly when it was, but I think it might have been last year—and said that 80% of those consulted said that the EU definition of precision engineering was not adequate, and that the end product, rather than the process, was more important. The Minister can write to me, given the hour, but I would like to know who was consulted—who were these 80% of people who said that the EU’s process was not fit for purpose? The Minister also said that the UK’s regulations mirrored the EU’s regulations and monitors; that conflicts with this figure of 80% saying that they were not fit for purpose. For me, it is smaller businesses that benefit most from trade with the EU rather than with Argentina, although I accept that some will trade with the latter.

Agricultural Holdings (Fee) Regulations 2022

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the content of these regulations and thank my noble friend for presenting them. I pay tribute to the work of my noble friend Lady Rock and all those who contributed to the review that she conducted.

It is a little disappointing that my noble friend says that we will have a response only “in due course”. We owe it to the tenanted sector to have a response in real time and a date when that might be due. I regret that I cannot remember whether it is Agricultural Holdings Act 1986 tenancies that are for one year only or more, but I know that the Tenant Farmers Association has expressed concern that where a tenancy agreement is for only three or five years, it is simply not long enough for tenant farmers to make the required investment.

This is an issue very close to my heart. I grew up in an tenanted area in the Pennines where there are smallholdings—mixed farms with not a great deal of land. At one stage my brother and I farmed two fields, but I could not stand the excitement so he now farms them in his own right. My late father is no longer there to look after all the admin for us, so my brother is in sole charge as the owner of those two fields. These smallholdings are very dependent on spring lamb and stall cattle, that is bringing young beef on and fattening them up. Marts such as at Middleton-in-Teesdale, Kirkby Stephen, Thirsk and Skipton are very dependent on this.

I argue that, if anything, there will be more call on these advisers. I accept that there has not been a review for five years. It could be argued that the fee is almost double, but I think it is a reasonable level. No one has corresponded with me to say that they will not be able to pay this.

I understand that 60% of all land in England is farmed by tenant farmers. Certainly in North Yorkshire, where I was an MP for 18 years, 48% of the farms are tenanted. This is a very big sector, so I would like to press my noble friend by asking whether the fees will cover all eventual disputes in this area. For example, will they cover potential eviction from the tenanted farm if the fee could be used to be represented in an arbitration procedure?

Similarly, the landowner may seek to take back the farmland if they wish to plant trees, for example. I know that my noble friend and the department are very keen on that but, from what we have seen in Cumbria and Wales, it is not always ideal to be taking land that has been actively farmed—particularly when our food supply chains are under pressure of being in an emergency situation, as we hear this morning, with the NFU calling on the Government to take urgent action in that regard.

My heart goes out to tenant farmers at this time. The fees proposed in this statutory instrument are affordable given the increase that the Government are seeking. I welcome the fact that there could be a five- yearly review; I think I saw that in paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum. Can my noble friend say in precisely which circumstances the fee would be applied and assure us that the tenants will have recourse to a professional authority in the circumstances that I outlined?

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introductory remarks on this statutory instrument. The essence of the instrument is to increase the fee charged when a dispute arises around a tenancy agreement between a landlord and an agricultural tenant. This is then referred to the Agricultural Holdings Act 1986 for arbitration where the fee is charged.

I note that the requisite fee has not been increased since 1996 and agree that it is necessary to set it at a realistic level. I also agree with the regulations and, I assume, the fee being on a cost-recovery basis, to be reviewed every five years. This seems sensible. The previous fee was £115; however, the proposed fee of £195 seems to have been set in 2019 by Defra. If that fee is intended to be on a cost-recovery basis, it is already three years out of date and inflation has not stood still in the intervening years.

The consultation undertaken by Defra received a favourable response, with 73% of respondents agreeing to the update and the proposed fee. The Explanatory Memorandum refers in paragraph 12 to the impact as “a relatively small increase”. This is somewhat true in that £195 is not a huge sum but it is, nevertheless, a 70% increase on the fee previously paid. If the fee were to go up by 70% every five years and be linked on a cost-recovery basis, those involved might not be quite so keen to agree to it.

Given that some holdings will have cross-border implications, can the Minister say whether the devolved Administrations are likely to be charging the same level of fee for arbitration as England? I was not entirely sure from his remarks whether that was the case. If not, and there is a difference in fees, that would cause some problems.

Lastly, like the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, I refer to the Rock review on farm tenancy. There is evidence that in some cases the slow rollout of the sustainable farming incentive grants has led to tenants being refused permission by their landlords to apply for this scheme. This may cause an increase in the numbers coming forward for arbitration. Can the Minister tell the Committee how many cases of arbitration there were last year and how many there have been this year? Are there sufficient staff in the arbitration service to deal with increased demand, if that should prove to happen?

I believe that this is the right way forward and I support this SI.

Restriction of Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment (Exemptions) (Fees) Regulations 2022

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend for presenting this statutory instrument. I read very carefully the conclusions of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and will go through some of the issues with this Committee this afternoon.

The Explanatory Memorandum sets out very clearly at paragraph 10.1 that a six-week public consultation was conducted which closed on 26 August. That is normally considered a holiday period. Certainly it is when I have always taken my holidays, as I tend to go to northern Europe and that is probably the last bit of good weather and bright sunshine that we might expect. It was a short six-week consultation; I think they normally last 12 weeks. Was there any reason why the consultation was shorter and not carried through to September, which would have given people more chance to respond?

Fifty-three of the 54 respondents objected to the line that the Government took. I will not read it out because it is there and everyone will probably say the same thing this afternoon, but I wonder why the Government overruled those who bothered to reply.

My noble friend said of paragraph 16 of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s response that this is not a potential loophole. I would like to understand why he and the department think that. If Northern Ireland, which is still part of the single market, can export these products to the rest of Great Britain, which is not, and those in Great Britain have to pay the fee, that gives those operators in Northern Ireland a commercial advantage, if I understand this correctly. I would like to understand the background to why my noble friend thinks it is not a loophole or a commercial advantage to the Northern Irish.

Previously, in its conclusions, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee confirmed that there is no payment for Northern Ireland operators and that 53 of the 54 responses were negative towards the Government’s position. I underline the uncertainty in paragraph 14 of that scrutiny committee report, which says that the view the department has put forward

“creates uncertainty and may be inconsistent with the Department’s declared intention to have a GB-specific, cost-recovery based system for exemptions.”

I take this opportunity to press my noble friend on that.

I have one last question. What will the position of this statutory instrument be under the retained EU legislation Bill? Are we coming back to revisit this, or is this the last time we will look at this statutory instrument?

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introductory remarks on this statutory instrument.

Previously, applying for an exemption for the use of certain hazardous substances was handled and organised, and the cost was picked up, by the EU. After Brexit, the cost was picked up by the UK taxpayer. The Government are now moving the cost from the taxpayer to the businesses which are required to apply for exemptions. Not surprisingly, those businesses are balking at this additional cost where previously there was none for the same service.

As the Minister said, the fee that Defra is implementing to be payable is £39,721. At the same time, the Secretary of State will publish a charging scheme of fees and how they will be reached. The fee set out in the instrument will operate from April 2023, when the new scheme of charges will also become operable. There is no indication at this time whether those charges will be higher or lower, only that they will be on a full cost-recovery basis.

As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, said, Defra held a six-week consultation on the fee being introduced in this SI, which ended on 26 August. Of the 54 responses received, 53 disagreed with the consultation proposals. This is the first time that the businesses concerned have been expected to pay for exemptions.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, of which I am a member, asked a number of questions of Defra on the SI. The exemptions cover such items as the use of lead in portable emergency defibrillators and the use of mercury in intravascular ultrasound imaging systems. This is vital to the health service and a number of us at all levels, because of the effects on the health service, on which we are completely reliant.

The fee is to cover the cost of a consultant’s fee in assessing the application and whether the product is safe and fit for use. Regardless of whether the application is a renewal or a new exemption, the fee to be applied is the same. There are 23 existing exemptions that would require an application fee to be paid when they are next renewed.

Four businesses consulted were concerned that specialised items provided in low volumes but subject to the application of a fee might not continue to be supplied in GB due to the cost. This would have a significant impact on some medical technologies. Given that some of those businesses supplying this equipment and needing an exemption certificate are small and medium-sized businesses, the cost is likely to have a negative effect. Can the Minister comment on this?

The Northern Ireland market, as both speakers have said, is not subject to these regulations as it still operates under EU rules. No fee is therefore charged there. This SI applies to England, Scotland and Wales only. Can the Minister say whether it is likely that some devices might appear illegally on the Northern Ireland market, not subject to a fee, and then be sold on to England, Scotland or Wales? I understand the Minister says that this is not likely, but this is a loophole in the system whereby no fee would have to be paid for a separate GB exemption; the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, also referred to this. Would it not be better if the same system applied to the whole of Great Britain, including Northern Ireland? Would the Minister care to comment on that?

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[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their valuable contributions to this debate. I will address the points that have been made.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked why the fee is being introduced when so many respondents to the consultation did not support it—a point made by both other speakers as well. If I am in business and not facing a cost that is being picked up by somebody else, and I am asked whether I would like to pick it up, I am likely to say no. I am not surprised that they did not want to do this, but there are two reasons for doing it. One is to relieve the poor, overburdened taxpayer from picking up the cost of this. The second is to drive behaviour change and to drive companies to look at the alternatives where possible; I will come on to talk about that. I assure the noble Baroness that introducing the fee is entirely consistent with the Government’s Managing Public Money principles and is based strictly on a cost-recovery basis. It is also worth noting that charging is common practice in circumstances in which industry is required to apply for registrations, authorisations and licensing to comply with regulatory requirements.

Existing guidance on how to submit an application for an exemption is available on GOV.UK and will be updated to reflect the requirement to pay an application fee well in advance of the April 2023 date when the fee will be introduced. I assure the Committee that in granting exemption applications, the Government are not acting to constrain the development of alternative, less harmful substances. A fundamental requirement in considering an exemption is to do a detailed technical appraisal of substitute substances. In circumstances where an application is granted, it will be done for a time-limited period only.

I will address some of the other points. A short consultation was required to ensure that this statutory instrument could be laid using powers that expire at the end of this year, using the EU withdrawal Act. While it was short, key stakeholders were contacted and encouraged to respond. I suspect the noble Baroness and I were on the same side in the referendum, but I can assure her that this gives more accountability for the decisions that are taken. When I was last at Defra, this would just have been rubber-stamped. It would come have from the Commission and we would have had no say over it. At least we can now drive standards and do things in the right way. I hope that responds to the first and second points made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh.

The points raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee are important, but I reiterate that there is no loophole. Products placed on the Northern Ireland market must comply with the EU ROHS and EU exemptions. Unfettered access means that such products can then move freely into Great Britain. They are not required to submit a GB exemption application, so there can be no loophole in avoiding paying the necessary application fee. I hope that satisfies the Committee’s concerns.

Points were made about the REUL Bill. Ministerial colleagues and I are in the process of analysing Defra’s REUL stock and determining what should be preserved as part of domestic law, as well as REUL that should be repealed or amended. This work will determine how we use the powers in the Bill and, therefore, inform assessments of the Bill’s impact.

It is important that we consider whether recognition of exemptions in other jurisdictions with similar ROHS regulations to ours could work. There is no guarantee that we will proceed even after that assessment, but any proposal to proceed will be subject to consultation. It is therefore sensible to proceed now on the basis that no alternative to the current arrangements will be in place.

A number of people asked questions about the fees. The fee will be £39,721, as I said. This is made up of the technical consultant’s fee of £36,625 plus £3,096, which covers the cost of other administrative tasks such as publishing the consultation. The fee will be payable from April 2023. Exemptions last up to five years, or seven years for medical devices such as those mentioned by the noble Baroness. Exemptions are granted to products rather than to the applicant. This reduces the impact on business because, very often, the applications are made by trade bodies and huge multinational companies for which this figure is loose change down the back of the sofa. For an SME it would be a substantial cost, but that cost is very likely to be picked up by a whole range of different SMEs operating together through a trade body.

Since January 2021 we have received two applications for exemptions for Great Britain.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. Is he saying that if, for instance, an MRI scanner received an exemption certificate, it would not matter who manufactured it and it would have the same exemption certificate?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The exemption is on the product, not the applicant, so yes. Some of these would be multinational companies based overseas wanting to export their products here. They would have to get this to do so.

I think that addresses the main concern of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. Trade bodies will be the vast majority of the applicants, not businesses. It is crucial that we drive behaviour change where it can be achieved. The application process requires the applicant to have looked at alternatives before securing an exemption.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked for examples of recent exemption decisions. Lead in solders in portable emergency defibrillators is one. Mercury in components of intravascular ultrasound imaging systems and lead in hexavalent chromium used for civil explosives in mining and quarrying are other examples of where this requirement will be used.

The Secretary of State could grant exemptions without the need for an application if the sale of essential equipment were jeopardised because of the non-payment of a fee. For example, if the supply of essential equipment was required for the health sector and was jeopardised because of the requirement to have an application, the Secretary of State could overrule it and give that exemption. I think that gives a lot of assurance to people who feel that, for example, our NHS could lose out on getting a vital piece of equipment.

The final question, quite rightly put, was whether this drives business away from the UK. It is normal for businesses to be charged fees for registrations and applications if necessary. As I say, it is important to note that the fees apply to the product, not to individual businesses. There is a track record of businesses working together to submit applications.

Animals and Animal Health, Feed and Food, Plants and Plant Health (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Grand Committee

This is potentially an extremely challenging area. It is just 10 years since we had the horsemeat scandal—or “horsegate”, as it became known. I accept that I could not tell the difference between a horse carcass and a cattle carcass, whether they had meat on them or not, but there should be someone out there looking at this and ensuring that horses imported into this country will not end up on our plate, passed off as beef. That case highlighted the importance of inspections, not just on an ad hoc basis but spot checks. It not only highlighted notifiable cases as they come into this country but, as the food penetrates through the food system, ensured that when we eat kebabs—I do not eat many of them—they are what they say on the product and not something else. With those remarks, I welcome these regulations.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introductory remarks to these two statutory instruments. I fear that I may fail his questions on the geographical applications of the SI. As with many statutory instruments that we have debated recently, the first—on animals, animal health, feed and food, plants and plant health—corrects errors in previous SIs.

The Explanatory Memorandum says in paragraph 7.2 that SI 2016/2031 will be reintroduced. Having been removed, it was considered redundant, but the removal appears to have left no mechanism available to enforce the regulation. The SI refers to three months’ imprisonment in all three devolved Administrations for non-compliance with the regulation. If there is no enforcement mechanism, can the Minister say how the prison sentences are to be applied and carried out? No doubt I have misunderstood this section of the SI.

Paragraph 7.4, as regards the OCR, refers to a designated competent authority but also states

“where no competent authority has been designated, the appropriate authority will be assumed to be the competent authority.”

Can the Minister say what qualification is needed to be classed as a competent authority, what is needed to be an appropriate authority, and who or what this is likely to be?

Paragraph 7.8 of the EM refers to Article 139, non-compliance and penalties for non-compliance, but states

“there are no powers to create any penalties to fulfil this requirement.”

In that case, is there any relevance to this SI?

Paragraph 7.13 refers to transporters, organisers and keepers of animals keeping a journey log, as set out in “Annex II”. I could not find any such annexe either in this SI or the Explanatory Memorandum. Can the Minister point me in the right direction for this?

I turn now to trade in animals and related products. This appears to be a much simpler SI. I note in paragraph 6.2 of the EM that the Welsh Government are producing an equivalent version. Can the Minister say whether this will be compatible with the one that we are debating this afternoon, or whether it will be radically different? Some difficulties could arise if it were different.

The instrument as a whole refers to animals and animal products. Might those products include ivory? What inspections and checks are taking place to ensure that ivory products do not slip through the net and enter the country illegally? Paragraph 7.2 covers the import of live animals and products of animal origin from the EU. Although this appears to relate only to imports, the wording allows the European Commission to make changes to legislation for intra-European movements of live animals. Is it possible that this could be used to export live animals to the EU? Could this also be used to circumnavigate the UK’s ban on the export of live animals? I should be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

Finally, the last sentence of paragraph 7.5 states:

“Movements from Northern Ireland or the Crown Dependencies are considered internal movements and are not affected by the modifications.”


Given the close proximity to the coast of France of the Crown dependencies of Jersey and Guernsey, is it possible for live animals to be exported via this route? I look forward to the Minister’s reassurance on that point.

Despite my comments, I am content for these two SIs to pass and await the Minister’s comments.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, we also support these SIs but, like other noble Lords, I have a few questions and points to make about them.

I am concerned by the number of SIs where we have seen errors—and I have raised this on a number of occasions—when bringing former European legislation into UK law. We know that five particular SIs are referenced in paragraph 3.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum for the Animals and Animal Health, Feed and Food, Plants and Plant Health (Amendment) Regulations, all originating from 2019 or 2020. It is concerning that we are still seeing this number of corrections happening. I have asked the Minister before to reassure us that it is not going to keep happening but, unfortunately, it seems to keep reappearing. We ask again for reassurance that this is being sorted out and we are not going to keep having statutory instruments to correct previous instruments that we have already passed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, mentioned the issues with paragraph 7.2, outlining the penalty regime. As she pointed out, the penalty regime was considered redundant in 2020, which now means that there is no mechanism fully to enforce the plant health regulation as the existing penalty regime cannot be amended or added to. Can the Minister let us know what the practical impact of this has been, and what is the current situation going forward?

We also know that other areas have been corrected, including the accidental deletion of a requirement on the Secretary of State to charge fees in connection with certain functions carried out under the official controls regulation. It worries me how much the Government are trying to achieve in such a short space of time, and this is one of the reasons we are seeing so many errors. Again, I would be grateful if the Minister can confirm to the Committee that he is keeping a very close eye on the department in these areas, so we have as few errors as possible. We completely support the fact that we need to avail ourselves of opportunities to regulate ourselves differently, now that we are out of the EU, but we worry about the lack of legal clarity in the short to medium term while these errors keep taking place.

More positively for this SI, we are pleased to see that paragraph 7.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum notes that the devolved Administrations were consulted on the changes and consented to them. We welcome that collaborative approach being taken to relations with the devolved Administrations.

Very briefly on the second SI, the Trade in Animals and Related Products (Amendment and Legislative Functions) Regulations 2022, I reiterate what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, about the Welsh Government’s equivalent instrument. It would be helpful to have an update on what that says and how it works with what we are doing in Westminster.

The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments reported on Regulation 9(5) regarding defective drafting around the definition of “enactment”. The question was whether this regulation can be used to amend Acts of Parliament. Again, clarification is needed but, also, what is the purpose of this power? Could the Minister give an example of how this would be used in practice?

Finally, I draw attention to some other questions noble Lords asked, particularly on live animal exports, which both noble Baronesses mentioned. It is important that we have clarification on the implications for import/export with the EU, compared to our legislation on this issue. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, also asked an important question about whether this will be retained law as we bring forward other legislation. The questions on food inspections were also important.

This worries me particularly because of the number of errors. It is important, when we put through these SIs, that we have real clarification on some of these issues. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Sustainable Farming Incentive Grants

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Countryside Stewardship is already an established agri-environmental scheme. Many farmers are used to it. Roughly half the farmers in England are in some type of scheme, either the high level or another tier. As those schemes come to an end, they will be able to transfer into the mid tier, local nature recovery or whatever it is called at that time—it is Countryside Stewardship-plus. What is really important is that there will be a seamless continuity. Within that scheme they will be able to do similar sorts of things to what they are already doing in Countryside Stewardship.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, the rollout of the SFI is extremely slow and, according to the NFU, only 849 farmers have so far joined the scheme—a fraction of the 5,500 that Defra suggested could apply. At the same time, the basic farm payments are decreasing year on year, having no regard for the extremely slow rollout of the ELMS replacement. Can the Minister say how the Government plan to support farmers now—not in two years—at a time when feed and fertiliser prices are rocketing, coupled with increased energy costs?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We are helping farmers with the latter point. First, the noble Baroness’s figure was not right; the number of farmers in the scheme is roughly double what she said. Secondly, we are helping farmers through bringing forward half their basic payment, which was an annual payment, to last July. We are doing a number of different things on energy. We are trying to support businesses, not just in farming but right across the board, with the spikes in energy costs. We are also rolling this out in a way that allows farmers to contribute to how the scheme is run. It is an iterative process. We have changed the schemes, working with people. There is a determination to see 70% of farmers operating within the sustainable farming incentive, the entry-level scheme, and many more in other tiers as time goes by. So I hope the noble Baroness will agree that this is the right way forward as we move away from the very unfair, anti-farmer, anti-small farmer basic payments scheme.

Persistent Organic Pollutants (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2022

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Grand Committee

In conclusion, I emphasise that the measures in this instrument will ensure that the UK’s retained POPs legislation will be fully operational, with previous inoperabilities corrected. The Government’s 25-year environment plan made clear our commitment to support and protect the natural environment, wildlife and human health. The draft regulations will allow the UK to continue to meet existing commitments relating to POPs, and continue to fully implement the Stockholm convention requirements to prohibit, eliminate or restrict the production and use of POPs. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee and hope that noble Lords will support these measures and their objectives.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has clearly set out why we are debating this statutory instrument. In 2020, under the auspices of Defra, a very large number of SIs were brought forward and debated—mostly in Grand Committee. Since then, many of them have been amended, mostly for very minor errors. Given the number of SIs, it is not surprising that errors occurred. However, those relating to persistent organic pollutants, or POPs as they are referred to, are more serious, as they could have meant that the UK was not compliant with the Stockholm convention, which aims to prohibit, eliminate or restrict the production and use of POPs.

The original SI was repealed, and Regulation (EU) 2019/1021 replaced it on 15 July 2019. This SI contained errors. We are at the end of 2022 and are only now correcting these errors, mainly due to the current powers expiring at the end of this month. So it is very much the 11th hour, if not quite the 59th minute.

This is about not policy change but ensuring that current policy legally complies with existing regulations. Given the toxic nature of some POPs, it is surprising that these errors were not picked up earlier. I am content that this SI should pass but I have a general question for the Minister.

In the run-up to Brexit and immediately after, there were a large number of Defra-based SIs, as I referred to earlier. The Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill has begun its passage in the other place and has been red-rated by the Regulatory Policy Committee. I will not comment on that here but there are rumours that, when passed, this revocation and reform Bill will begin the process for implementing some 2,400 statutory instruments. My heart sank when I heard that as a large number of those SIs are likely to fall within the remit of Defra. My question to the Minister, therefore, is this: is he confident that there will be sufficient staff in Defra to deal with the mountain of SIs coming their way, and that sufficient detail will be covered to ensure that there are no future errors in vital statutory instruments?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, we do not have any problem with this statutory instrument as it stands, but our concerns are similar to those of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell.

First, I congratulate the Minister on his introduction. He did say that these are necessary technical amendments; some of them sounded extremely technical so I congratulate him on introducing those technical aspects to us today.

Our big concern is exactly as the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, said: there were many, many SIs during the Brexit process and we repeatedly raised issues around drafting accuracy. As the Minister knows, a number of those instruments had to come back to us. So it is concerning that, some time on from the first time around, we now have this issue. This was not picked up quickly. Can the Minister explain why it has taken so long to bring it to light? What has happened to draw it to the department’s attention? Was there an audit? Was there a practical issue that shed light on it? As the noble Baroness asked, how do we ensure that this does not happen again in future, because we know that we will be seeing a lot more SIs again? That is our biggest concern: not what is in the SI itself but the process and what has been happening.

Air Quality (Designation of Relevant Public Authorities) (England) Regulations 2022

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument. The quality of the air we breathe is essential for the population to remain healthy and fit. We have seen in press reports the effects that poor air quality can have on individuals, from minor ailments to life-threatening conditions, especially for young children.

Part IV of the Environment Act 1995 established the local air quality management framework. This requires local authorities to set an air quality management area whereby they assess air quality in their area and act if pollution levels reach a dangerous level. This is easier said than done. Local authorities find it difficult to achieve air quality management plans as there is often a lack of co-operation on the part of the polluter. This may be a road haulage business or a busy NHS hospital.

This instrument should ensure that National Highways plays a full part in implementing and supporting air quality management plans. The consultation that Defra conducted was extensive and well publicised. Not surprisingly, there was strong support for National Highways becoming the designated body to assist with improving air quality. It does, after all, construct the main highways running through or close to our communities.

Given local authority responsibility and National Highways involvement, one would imagine that close proximity to main road thoroughfares and highways would play an important part in the planning decisions for schools, nurseries and housing designated for young families. However, I fear that this is not always the case.

Although I accept that this instrument does not cover London, which comes under the remit of the Mayor of London, I was nevertheless horrified when the secondary school in London that I walk past on my way to the Tube station was remodelled, allowing it to take in a large number of extra pupils. No thought appeared to be given to the fact that the main entrance was yards away from a busy junction with traffic lights, with the exact time when the children were attending in the morning coinciding with the main commuter rush hour. The quality of the air these children were breathing must have been very poor. It was at least five years before the entrance for pupils was moved away from the main road to a subsidiary entrance round the corner and away from traffic, at the back of the school playground.

There will be many other such examples up and down the country where children and young people are exposed to unacceptable air pollution, which damages their health. Local authorities and National Highways both have a role to play here. Can the Minister give reassurances that this statutory instrument will improve outcomes for those currently breathing poor-quality air? Given that co-operation is defined as being “appropriate”, can he also say what happens when the co-operation is not appropriate? Apart from those two questions, we support this SI.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, we support it. She explained why there are so many concerns about air quality standards right across the country and went into the details of some of the challenges that have been facing local authorities around how to tackle this in their area.

We know that air pollution is still a huge problem and a great worry to many people. As the Minister will recall, we recently debated the clean air Bill; that debate demonstrated the huge amount of support for the Government to get on and tackle this seriously.

We very much welcome the designation of National Highways following the Government’s consultation. The Minister mentioned further designations. When are we likely to see any further designations? What will the process and timescale of that be? What came out in the consultation around potential further designations? How will this work with the development of local plans with local government around clean air strategies? In particular, what are the duties going to be to tackle health inequalities?

Finally, the Minister will not be surprised to hear me ask whether there is any update on when we are likely to see the air quality targets, whether they will all be laid together or whether some will be laid first. Will there be prioritisation? What are the targets likely to be? With that, we support the regulations. It is a very important decision to bring National Highways into this.

Avian Flu

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I do agree. On Monday we will debate the Second Reading of the precision breeding Bill. It will take a number of years for the measures in that Bill to become effective, but it will undoubtedly have an impact on this kind of disease, to which we will be able to improve resistance in plant and animal species.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, some strains of avian flu are transmissible to humans. Some are very mild but others are more aggressive. Of 868 cases of human infection recorded between 2003 and October 2022, more than half—456—resulted in death. The traditional flu season is approaching. Those with flu-like symptoms tend to self-isolate and not visit the GP. How will the Government accurately assess the level of avian flu among humans in the UK and record the number of resulting deaths?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The medical advice we have received is that although this is a zoonosis and can therefore be transferred from birds to humans, the risk is low. There was one case in the UK last year, in an elderly gentleman who recovered. We give clear guidance on how to work with birds, whether in a domestic fowl setting or in picking up carcasses of birds that have died of avian influenza. There is very clear guidance on this and members of the public should be wary of getting into close association with sick birds.

Sewage Discharges

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good point. The recent outflow at St Agnes in Cornwall, which rightly had a lot of publicity, lasted for 10 minutes, and there may have been some sewage in it. After 12 hours of rain, the vast majority was probably soil run-off from farms and run-off from roads. We are bringing in measures to continue to improve farming policy and soil management, and we are putting a lot of resources into this. But she is absolutely right that highways authorities and others have responsibilities to make sure that we look at this holistically, not just in one particular sector.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, despite heavy fines, water companies carry on discharging sewage into our waterways. Communities affected by this practice are at their wits’ end. There is a danger to aquatic wildlife and children playing close to infected water. Fines do not appear to be a sufficient deterrent. I have heard the Minister’s reassurances, but surely the timeframe is far too long to solve this noxious problem.

Avian Influenza

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK is experiencing its most severe outbreak of avian influenza. Its persistence over the last year, coupled with soaring energy and feed costs, has put the British poultry sector under huge emotional and financial pressure. We welcome the Government’s announcement that a full bird housing order will come into effect from next Monday, but that decision should have been made weeks ago. There has been a serious situation for months and the impact on producers is devastating, with over 3 million birds already culled, so why was this decision not taken earlier?

We recognise that the Government are offering farmers support, but concerns have been raised about whether the compensation scheme is fit for purpose. The Animal and Plant Health Agency’s position is that compensation is paid for live birds not showing signs of disease at the time of culling. But delays to culling, through no fault of farmers, mean that there can be very few birds left alive by the time culling begins, with farmers then not receiving the compensation to which they should be entitled. Will the Government reconsider how compensation is being assessed so that it treats farmers fairly and provides vital financial protection?

I am sure the Minister recognises the significant impact on free-range poultry farmers. The loss of free-range status and subsequent change in labelling requirements causes significant cost and disruption to egg producers and the supply chain, while the prospect of repeatedly losing free-range status threatens the long-term resilience of the industry. The NFU has asked the Government whether they will review the legislation which provides a 16-week protection period for the marketing of free-range eggs when the government housing measures are imposed. The protection period has to be fit for purpose, so the NFU is asking that it should instead last for the duration of these housing measures. Will the Government consider this?

We also understand that the outbreak has spread much faster this year and that we are six weeks ahead of where we were at this time last year. Turkey and geese farmers have warned that if the situation is not resolved, we could face severe shortages over Christmas. Is the Minister able to reassure your Lordships’ House on this matter?

Importantly, we must also consider the long-term approach and strategy to dealing with avian flu, because once this outbreak is over and we have moved on, it will inevitably return. On this note, I should like to ask the Minister about vaccines. Mark Spencer, the Minister in the other place, said in response to a question on Tuesday:

“The advice I have been given is that the current vaccines are not as effective against the current strain of European bird flu as we would have hoped”


and that

“because of trade deals, there is a challenge with vaccinated birds entering the food chain”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/11/22; col. 806.]

If the current vaccines are not effective enough, what government research is taking place or being planned to take place into vaccination? Currently, avian influenza vaccination is not permitted in the UK for commercial poultry, so we need to understand any trade implications of a prospective vaccination programme if we can find a suitable way forward.

As part of the strategy to tackle this disease, will the Government urgently increase investment into research and development to build knowledge and understanding about the potential use of vaccination and, importantly, prioritise international collaboration, as, clearly, this is not just a UK problem? We recognise the seriousness of this situation. I hope the Minister can provide a clear response on the way forward. I reassure him and the Government that any short and long-term measures needed to tackle this terrible disease will have our support.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, avian influenza is having a devastating effect on the poultry industry and wild bird populations. The epidemic first manifested itself in autumn 2021 when migratory birds started to arrive on our shores. Since then, it has spread and there are now some 91 infected premises in the UK. The vast majority are in East Anglia, the first stopping point for migratory birds, especially waterfowl. I am sure the Minister is as concerned as I am, not only about the effect on seasonal poultry producers but also on biodiversity in the wild bird population.

In the run-up to Christmas, those poultry breeders, especially free-range turkey farmers, will be particularly affected and worried about how they will manage. This is a key season for them, and they cannot easily recover the loss of income from this epidemic at another time of the year. Poultry farmers are grateful for the Government’s change on compensation claiming, with it coming at the start of culling rather than the end. However, changes to the rate of payments starting from 1 October will not help those affected during August and September. Can the Minister say whether the Government are considering any help for these producers?

I, like others, welcome the measures for mandatory housing for poultry and captive birds starting next Monday. This should help to reduce the spread of disease but will nevertheless be a blow for free-range producers. The measures apply whether it is for one hen being kept in a garden or a large poultry business. The measures for mandatory housing are stringent and will incur extra costs for producers. Is there a grant scheme for producers to help with the cost of providing mandatory housing?

As with all animal epidemics, stringent biosecurity measures are essential whether for a small breeder or very large-scale poultry producer. As with the devastating foot and mouth epidemic in 2001, farm-gate foot baths, bedding and animal feed need scrupulous attention to ensure that they are not the cause of spreading infection. Only Defra avian influenza-approved disinfectants should be used.

Noble Lords will know that, if a breeder suspects that they have avian influenza in their flock, it is an offence not to report it to the Defra rural services helpline. Can the Minister say what the penalty for the non-reporting of a suspected outbreak is likely to be? Does the Defra helpline have sufficient staff to answer all the calls they will be receiving?

I turn now to the Government’s proposal to allow poultry farmers to slaughter their birds now before they become infected and freeze them. In particular I am thinking about turkeys in the run-up to Christmas. The proposal is that these birds, after slaughter and freezing, would be thawed and sold as free range rather than frozen birds. These thawed birds would be sold to consumers between 28 November and 31 December.

Since Brexit, there has been concern about sufficient numbers of vets and slaughtermen, who had previously come to the UK in the run-up to the Christmas season to help with the killing and preparation of turkeys. Can the Minister give reassurance that there will be sufficient staff at abattoirs to deal with this early slaughter of birds? I sympathise with the poultry industry and support measures to help it cope through this very difficult period. Equally, it is important to have a ready supply of qualified and competent staff to deal with the early influx of birds at abattoirs.

I am also extremely concerned that frozen birds are to be thawed and sold as free range—which, of course, they were before they were frozen. That is not the issue. The issue is that for years the advice has been that frozen poultry meat, once thawed, should not be refrozen unless it has first been cooked. Given the timeframe during which the thawed birds are to be sold, it is a fair assumption that consumers, seeing the birds for sale and knowing there may be a shortage, will buy what they need for Christmas early and take it home to put into their freezers, ready to take out a couple of day before they are due to be cooked.

In what way will these pre-frozen and thawed birds be labelled? Will the labelling make it clear that, although free-range, the birds have been frozen and thawed and should not be refrozen before being cooked and eaten? A “fresh” bird that has been purchased at the end of November or beginning of December is unlikely to keep in a domestic refrigerator until Christmas Day and still be fit for human consumption. Although the Government’s solution appears to help solve the poultry farmers’ problems, I am concerned about the health aspects of this for the population as a whole and am looking for the noble Lord’s reassurance.

I turn briefly to how the epidemic is affecting wild birds. My colleague, my noble friend Lord Teverson, reports that the shores of Cornwall are littered with the carcasses of dead gannets, and no one is picking them up. This will not be a problem isolated to Cornwall: wherever wild and sea birds congregate in large numbers, there are likely to be large outbreaks of HPAI, resulting in the deaths of birds. What should happen to these carcasses?

Lastly, there are currently no restrictions on organised game-shooting activities. Can the Minister comment on this, please? Is he satisfied that sufficient biosecurity measures are being used on game shoots? I look forward to his comments on the effects of this epidemic.