European Union Referendum Bill

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Excerpts

Monday 2nd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

Absolutely, that is fine, and of course we would negotiate a deal with the Germans. But we come back to the point that we would not be holding all the cards. Exports to the UK account for 2.5% of their GDP, while it is 14% of our GDP. The other thing we should bear in mind is that the people who trade with us are, on the whole, Germany and the Netherlands. A lot of other countries do not do massive trade with us, quite frankly, and they would not have much interest in negotiating a great deal for the UK. Moreover, each of them would have a say in what that deal says.

Some have suggested that we have special links with the Commonwealth and with emerging markets around the world, so that is where we should be focusing our efforts. Really? How come Germany’s trade with China is three times greater than ours? The Germans also export more to India than we do. How come France finds it easier to land defence contracts with India than we do? That is the special relationship that we have with our Commonwealth friends. We cannot rely on historic relationships when 50% of our market in goods is with the EU.

Whatever deal is agreed, we know that each of the other 27 member states will be given a say in addition to the three members of the EEA, while Switzerland might have something to say if the UK managed to negotiate better terms than it. Some member states would be more generous than others and some would feel betrayed by a UK exit. The European Parliament would also have to ratify the agreement. So we have to be absolutely clear: the UK would not be holding very strong cards and it would not be an easy negotiation. Moreover, let us face it, negotiation is not exactly our Prime Minister’s strongest suit. The Prime Minister found it difficult to negotiate changes to the treaty from the inside but that will be nothing compared to trying to negotiate a new trade relationship with the EU from the outside.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 24 moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, calls for the Government to set out the relationship that it envisages having with the European Union in the event of a vote to leave. The amendment states that this report would have to be published 12 weeks before the date of the referendum and goes even further than that. It requires the Government to provide detail on the acceptability of hypothetical arrangements from the point of view of the 27 other member states. That seems unrealistic. I have just been listening to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, give details of some of the implications of Article 50. Amendment 24 seems to be asking the Government to put the cart before the horse before the horse has even bolted.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, I am sorry. There will not be many interruptions to the noble Baroness’s speech from the Labour Benches. Is she saying that it is unrealistic to consider the acceptability of this arrangement to every other member state? Does she not accept that that is very important? Indeed, it would be game, set and match if it were the case that not all 27 other member states agreed. Is it not essential to consider how it would be with all those vetoes around the place? If we are not careful, we will be in a very difficult position. She cannot utter that little phrase and have nothing more to say about it. Is it not rather important?

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[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, it is indeed important. Perhaps I did not take enough care to explain the position. The amendment is asking the Government to do something that is impossible because they are barred from knowing what the agreement will be by the text of Article 50, which states:

“A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union”.

It then goes on to give the procedure. All I am saying is that the second part of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, asks the Government to leap over that and to say in advance of even notifying the European Council of their intent to withdraw what should be acceptable to the other states within the European Union in the event of a withdrawal. It is hypothetical simply because the Government cannot predict what will be acceptable to other states before there has been a referendum, before this country has taken a decision, and before this Government have been able to notify the European Council in accord with Article 50 if it takes a decision to leave. I am merely pointing out the procedure. I am sorry if I truncated that, thus making it less clear.

The second amendment in this group—Amendment 26 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle—would create a similar statutory requirement for the Secretary of State to commission and publish an objective assessment of the alternatives to the UK’s membership of the EU in advance of the referendum.

Amendment 32A, spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, calls for the Government to set out the relationship that it envisages with Ireland in the event of a vote to leave the European Union. I appreciate the reasons why she has put this forward and the importance of our relationship with Ireland. Her proposed report would also need to be published by the Government 12 weeks before the date of the referendum. I mentioned when replying to an earlier group of amendments the danger of imposing arbitrary deadlines given the possibility of legal challenge. I hope that I can be a little more helpful in saying that—

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Will the noble Baroness kindly address the first part of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, to which she has not replied? I understand what she is saying about acceptability. I have no doubt that if the Government stated what they envisaged, quite a few people in the other 27 member states would answer the acceptability problem quite promptly. Will she address the problem about what the Government envisage doing if there were a vote to leave the European Union?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, as I said, perhaps I can be more helpful. The noble Lord has been patient. I am now getting to the point that he wishes to hear. Noble Lords may recall the Prime Minister’s words last week in the other place, when he said,

“if we do not get what we need in our renegotiation I rule absolutely nothing out. I think that it is important that as we have this debate as a nation we are very clear about the facts and figures and about the alternatives”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/10/15; col. 345.]

As I mentioned earlier today, if we are to put an obligation on the Government, the Committee would need to think very carefully about the terminology used. That goes to part of the debate we have just had. I have concerns about some of the wording used in these amendments. I can understand the good will behind some of it but there would be uncertainty about what the objective obligation specifically requires. While the Government acknowledge the importance of providing balanced information, this requirement could be an undue source of criticism, as there can often be a surprising—or, rather, unsurprising, I should say, given what we have heard tonight—level of disagreement about what counts as objective.

I think there has been a very fair reflection tonight of the feelings on all sides of the argument and about how fairness and evenness may not be perceived as such by others. It is a very serious matter to which we all need to address our greatest concentration in considering how we make progress on these issues. As I advised the Committee earlier, the Government will now think carefully about the issue of public information and consider what we may be able to bring forward by way of an amendment on Report. I continue to listen with interest to the arguments put forward by the Committee. Each of these groups of amendments has rounded out the debate more fully and started to crystallise some of the areas where there may be some agreement and those where perhaps there is unlikely ever to be agreement.

In the light of the answer I have given, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, will withdraw his Amendment 24. I urge other noble Lords with amendments in this group not to move them when we reach them.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

I thank the noble Baroness for her customary courteous, careful response to my amendment. I accept the criticism she made of its second proposed new subsection. She put it very vividly in saying that I was putting the cart before the horse before the horse had even bolted. I am sure the stable door was there somewhere. She has a point. Of course, the sequence would be, if we voted no, there is the vote, then presumably the Government go to Brussels and invoke Article 50, and there is a discussion from which an arrangement emerges, so she is absolutely right in her logic.

My amendment would have been better if I had asked the Government to report on the relationship with the European Union that they envisage in the event of a referendum vote to leave and on their view of the acceptability of such an arrangement to every European member state. I would be happy to see it adjusted. Maybe the Minister would wish to adjust it a little further.

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[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords, we are all keen to know the outcome of the Prime Minister’s negotiations. Now we have an idea of what he is hoping to achieve and he has promised to write down the UK’s negotiating position in a letter to the President of the Council. I think we are expecting that to happen next week. I am sure that other EU leaders will be happy to see that as well, given the reports we have read of their frustration at the vagueness of the UK’s negotiating position.

We know the broad themes—sovereignty, economic governance and what the meaning is of “ever-closer union”—but I would take issue with one point brought up in relation to the report written by the European Committee of this House. In relation to restrictions on free movement of labour, we would warn the Government not to talk up the problem of benefit tourism, as they did in their response to the European Committee on its report assessing the reform process. They said in their response that they want to reform,

“welfare to reduce the incentives which have led to mass immigration from Europe”.

I am afraid that the facts simply do not match up to that proposition. Last year, a European Commission report found there was no evidence of systematic or widespread benefit tourism by EU nationals migrating within the EU, including to the UK. In fact, the UK is the only EU member state where there were fewer beneficiaries among EU migrants than among nationals.

We are expecting the first substantive discussions on reform at the December summit. Let us hope that they are given a bit more of an airing than in June, when I think the Prime Minister was lucky to have had 10 minutes. Of course, it would make sense if the outcomes of the negotiations were made clear to the public. We would endorse the idea of the production of a report to this effect.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we are coming towards the end of a long, thorough and well-considered debate on the issue of public information. As I explained earlier, I agree that the public will expect Ministers to set out the results of the renegotiation, how the relationship with Europe has been changed and if, and how, those changes address their concerns.

My noble friend Lord Forsyth’s amendment would create a statutory requirement for the Secretary of State to publish and lay before both Houses a report on the renegotiation outcome, and any resulting changes in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union. He stipulates that this must be done four months before the referendum poll date. I am sympathetic with the aim behind the amendment: to ensure that the British people understand the outcome of the renegotiations. However, because of my earlier comments about deadlines, I do not think my noble friend will be surprised to hear that the four-month period imposed by this amendment between publication of a report and the poll is not necessarily going to be helpful to having a fair and even campaign. As I explained earlier, there could be unnecessary complications with regard to legal challenges if there were a prescriptive date. We need to think very carefully about the most appropriate timeframe for the delivery of public information. I think it would be unwise to commit to an arbitrary deadline at this stage.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not want to introduce any more animals into the debate and would certainly not want to look a gift horse in the mouth. I am most grateful to my noble friend for saying that she is sympathetic. Is her problem with the length of the period? The reason that there is a period in there is so that there is enough time for people to consider the impact of the changes before they cast their vote. It is arbitrary in the sense that it should not be less than four months. It is clearly very important that the White Paper, or whatever you want to call it, should not be published two weeks before polling day, before people have an opportunity to consider its value.

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[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend. The important thing, as the Committee has discussed today, is that we are able to have information that it is appropriate and reasonable for the Government to produce, but at a time when it can be considered by those who are to cast their vote.

We need to consider carefully what that timeframe may be, taking into account that the Government will need to ensure that the production of information is done in a reliable, sustainable way. Of course, the Government must not only compile a report but ensure that mechanisms are in place for its widespread distribution. These days, so many of us in this House access reports online, but that is not the only way that information needs to be distributed. I am not saying that I have already made up my mind what the deadline should be. I am saying that we need to consider carefully how there should be an opportunity for information to be produced and presented to the public in time for them to be able to make a decision.

I have listened very carefully to each of the debates, each of which has added something to our consideration. There is clearly an important role for the Government. The public will expect Ministers to set out the results of the negotiation. They will expect the Government to set out how the relationship with Europe is being changed, and if and how those changes address their concerns. That goes to the heart of what my noble friend has just said. The public need to be able to look at that information to answer the question that a voter might ask: what does it mean to me?

As my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in June, the Government intend to publish an assessment,

“of the merits of membership and the risks of a lack of reform in the European Union, including the damage that could do to Britain’s interests”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/6/15; col 165.]

I have also heard the calls today for an assessment of the implications of a vote to leave the European Union. We will now give careful consideration to what we may be able to bring forward by way of an amendment on Report that would command the support of both Houses. I know that we will continue to discuss this matter with noble Lords who have tabled amendments at this stage. I hope that that is a productive discussion.

The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, asked a specific question: would the Government’s commitment be to put something in the Bill? I have been talking about the Government bringing forward an amendment, which means that something would go into the Bill, simply because it would be an amendment.

I urge the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, to withdraw his amendment and to await discussions that I hope will proceed to a constructive conclusion. I am sorry.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

It is very easy to confuse us.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

It must have been a long day for me to confuse the two noble Lords. I offer my humble apologies to my noble friend Lord Forsyth. What a day!