“Soldier F” Trial Verdict
Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Lord Dodds of Duncairn(1 week, 2 days ago)
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
The noble Baroness raises an incredibly important point. That is why it was so important that we announced a joint framework with the Government of the Republic of Ireland and the Tánaiste to make sure that they are committed. Obviously, I cannot speak for their actions —we will all be judged on how we deliver—but this Government are moving forward with our legacy plans.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
My Lords, when even the judge in this case has said that the evidence fell well short of the standard required, can the Minister understand why most people regard these prosecutions, particularly this one, as vexatious? Can she understand the feeling among many people in Northern Ireland, from all communities, that a blind eye is turned to the ringleaders of terrorism, who continue today to boast of their involvement in crimes and who eulogise and glorify terrorism? There is legislation on the books, but nothing is done. They may be elected politicians in Sinn Féin—some of them are MPs and some are even in the Executive. Why is it that certain people are immune from prosecution while our veterans are hounded?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, no one is immune from prosecution and nor should they be. As the veterans’ commissioners of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales said collectively in July, this is a call not for immunity from the law but for fairness under it. That applies not just to people who wear uniforms; it should apply to everybody. With regard to the prosecutions, over the last month noble Lords have heard me, in different guises, talk about the independence of our Public Prosecution Service and our judiciary. Those are incredibly important parts—the core basis—of our British values. That is why people put on uniforms to protect them, and it is incredibly important that that is what is delivered.
Northern Ireland Troubles
Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Lord Dodds of Duncairn(3 weeks, 4 days ago)
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Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I too pay tribute to all the victims, the survivors and their families, who have suffered so much over many decades of the Troubles. She will be aware that there was great annoyance that this Statement was originally made when the other place was in recess and on the very final sitting day of this House, contrary to promises and pledges made to all the parties. The Government should apologise to parliamentarians in both Houses for that.
It is also important that, as we take this legislation through, there is no conflation of innocent victims with the perpetrators of violence, no conflation of the security forces of Northern Ireland—including the Army, the UDR and the police—with terrorists of whatever hue, and no conflation between those of us who advocate on behalf of the victims of terrorism and violence and those such as Sinn Féin which advocate on behalf of terrorists against the security forces. These basic principles must be re-emphasised if we are to give confidence to those who have suffered so much at the hands of criminals and gangsters. Will the Minister commit the Government, here and in the other place, to talking to the victims and veterans throughout this process and hear what they think of this legislation? So far, it appears that the only consultation that has taken place has been with the Dublin Government.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord not just for his comments but for all the work he has done as a genuine leader in his community. There are still times when I call him and cannot believe that his name is in my phone. I am grateful for everything that he has given me. He is absolutely right that I need to apologise that we could not do this because of the timings of the international agreement, which is what the framework was. The noble Lord is very aware that the timing was not of my choice. I apologise to him and your Lordships’ House that it has taken us this amount of time to get here. I also make it clear that we are here today because Northern Ireland business should never happen on a Thursday, so that noble Lords can actively participate.
The noble Lord touches on a very important point about the victims of terrorism. Many people have made that clear, including Ben Wallace. I debated using this quote but, when Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace said that:
“No-one is above the law. The British Army uphold British values, which is the rule of law, and that’s what we stand for. That’s why we are better than the terrorists”.
I am clear about our responsibility to make sure that the people affected by the most heinous terrorism of my lifetime on our shores get the answers that they are working for. There is not a day in the calendar on which someone was not murdered in the Troubles. As we stand here today, people will be grieving and remembering what happened to their loved ones. We all talk to victims’ groups regularly, as well as the NIO.
I will make one offer to noble Lords. I will be in Northern Ireland on a number of occasions before this legislation comes forward, and definitely between now and Christmas. If there are people whom the noble Lord would like me to sit down with—that offer goes to all Members of your Lordships’ House who live in Northern Ireland—and talk to about their experiences and what they need from this legislation, then my time is theirs.
Northern Ireland: Legacy of the Troubles
Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Lord Dodds of Duncairn
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness for her constructive engagement on this issue and for how generous she has truly been with her time with me and the Secretary of State. I look forward to working with her in the months ahead as we develop next steps; her voice will be incredibly important.
With regard to the specifics, I am of course aware of the detail of current legal cases and why some issues were raised and others were not. Bringing forward primary legislation means that we get to look at some of the other issues in the round, and I look forward to that process. That will also relate to disclosure and national security, and we will have those conversations, because for some that will be at the crux. I reassure the noble Baroness that we seek to do nothing to the people of Northern Ireland on the issue of legacy; we want to do this with the people of Northern Ireland, to deliver for them and for victims. That is the approach this Government will be taking as we develop the primary legislation.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
I welcome what the noble Baroness the Minister has said about the decision to appeal on the disclosure of sensitive information and in relation to the question on Article 2 of the Windsor Framework. The Minister in the other place spoke about seeking clarification of the legal position. Can she go further and say that, if this does not turn out as the Government expect, they will legislate to put matters right on both of those issues, in the unfortunate circumstances where the courts may rule against the Government?
On primary legislation, I welcome the noble Baroness’s commitment to talk to victims and victims groups, as well as her commitment to this issue and to talking to colleagues here in this House. Will she ensure that there is proper redress for the innocent victims of the IRA, as it is not a one-sided process? Sinn Féin’s First Minister of Northern Ireland—a so-called Minister for all—continues to eulogise and support murder by the IRA against innocent victims. Will that be called out as well? The Irish Republic’s position has been outlined by the noble Lord on the Benches opposite. Will that also be brought into the discussions?
Finally, the noble Baroness mentioned having consultations with the Irish Government. Will she commit to undertaking once again to follow the three-stranded approach, which is that the Government of the Irish Republic should be consulted only on matters that are outside the remit of Northern Ireland and only on matters that affect them?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his questions and his ongoing engagement, and for the support that he has given me in recent months as I have tried to get to grips with some of these issues. With regard to the Windsor Framework Article 2 appeal, he will know full well that I cannot speculate on what we would or would not do post any judgment, or what that judgment would be likely to do. But as and when—or if and when—that is the case, I will revert to your Lordships’ House, I am sure.
With regard to the victims of the Troubles and the perpetrators of some of the most vicious terror attacks that our country has ever known, there is no hierarchy of victim nor of persecutor. Those people who perpetrated these acts should be held to the same account, regardless of which section of the community they come from. We will do everything that we can to make sure that all partners who have a level of responsibility for next steps forward, as we work towards rebuilding and a genuine legacy process that works for the people of Northern Ireland, take full responsibility and fulfil all the commitments that they have made under a series of pieces of legislation. That includes the Government of the Republic of Ireland.
Northern Ireland
Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Lord Dodds of Duncairn(11 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I absolutely agree with my noble friend: in accordance with the Good Friday agreement and the principles of consent, Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK for as long as its people wish it to be. At present there is no clear basis to suggest that a majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to separate from the United Kingdom. For our part, the United Kingdom Government are committed to upholding the Good Friday agreement, in letter and in spirit, and in that vein to respecting all constitutional ambitions for Northern Ireland as long as they are pursued by legitimate means.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House how the east-west council set up under the Safeguarding the Union Command Paper and the new Council of the Nations and Regions can be used, together and separately, to promote the benefits of the union between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom? How is that work going to be evidenced in Northern Ireland itself, and how will it be used to dismantle the current trade and other barriers within the United Kingdom that have been imposed on the people of the area?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, the east-west council is one of the important structures of intergovernmental relations and institutions we will use to improve relations and collaboration on policy. The first meeting was in March 2024 and we will announce the date of the second meeting shortly. On the Council of the Nations and Regions, noble Lords will forgive me for the laugh but the Question following this one is on that council. It is a manifesto commitment and core to us resetting and normalising relations across the United Kingdom to deliver for the people of every corner of our country.
Northern Ireland City Deals
Debate between Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent and Lord Dodds of Duncairn
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I have seen no such impact assessment either. The Secretary of State was clear about this yesterday. However, we are making every effort to demonstrate the potential success of these deals. As we have seen with the Belfast region deal, £350 million of UK government money has led to £1 billion of investment in association with the deal. I turn to the timescale. We do not know what will be announced in the Budget and spending review. This is a six-week pause in a programme that has so far taken three years and is likely to go on for another 15. Six weeks is an appropriate pause to make sure that every penny of government money is appropriately allocated.
Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)
My Lords, in their recent announcement that they were going to grant an inquiry in the Pat Finucane case, the Government made a lot of the fact that previous commitments had been made. It was an entirely unnecessary decision, but they said it was based entirely on previous commitments. Previous Governments have committed very strongly in Command Papers and other agreements to these city deals for Northern Ireland. Why are the Government not applying the same standards and principles to this important case, which has delivered extremely good results in Belfast?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, the fiscal situation we inherited means that we are not in the position we believed we would be in when we came to government in July. That is the reality. There are many pauses to projects across the United Kingdom while we review to make sure that appropriate value for money is secured for every deal. This Government’s priority is the delivery of growth. The Secretary of State and the NIO are making every representation to the Treasury to make it clear that the Causeway Coast and Glens deal and the Mid South West deal will help us deliver that long-term plan. Like everybody, I will be waiting to see what happens in 20 days from today—fewer than three weeks—in the outcome of the Budget.